Just visited my doctor

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Racehorse

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The only experts I would listen to are those who are actually DOING the research or others people who are research scientists and have actually read all of the major studies............<snip> Nevermind that the actual scientists who did the research have to come forward and set the record straight.

Dr. F. came forward that DA and acetyl proprianol should not be in eliquid, yet ejuices containing it are flying off the shelves here at ECF.:lol:

Would consensus really *matter*? Obviously, it doesn't. Making money matters.........and that is the way it will always be.....all around, on ALL sides.;)
 

Racehorse

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My doctor said he'd be happy if I never smoked again and only vaped, but is concerned about the flavorings and preservatives in e-liquid...

Mine is concerned about the metals, and heat, as well.

Nobody really knows right now. What we do know is that cigarettes are way bad, smoking is way bad. Where vaping sits on a linear graph against that is definely ahead.......just how much ahead nobody really knows yet.
 

Alto101

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Surely you are just being hyperbolic. At least, I really hope so.

No, I really would do this. I would not tolerate my doctor making up science to fit their agenda. Any doctor telling me that vaping is as bad as smoking has just violated their Hippocratic Oath and needs to be reported. Any doctor that is this ignorant has no business treating me.
 

Xcighippy

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Well here's large portion of the studies, both good and bad, in one place, and reviewed.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743514003739

Even their conclusion, though not "e-cigs are harmless", is most certainly in NOT "they're as bad or worse than cigs".

Take special care to to read the short blurb about each studies finding, specifically the ones that make mention of comparison without cigarette output levels (CC).

I'd bet every piece of gear i own his research consisted of reading 4 headlines and magically changing his opinion.

WOW. Excellent piece. I downloaded the pdf for my reference. This is the best link I've seen so far and really opened my eyes to these studies. I guess I've had my head in the sand on this because I always tend to believe the "good" studies that support my views. Even though this is NOT what I wanted to hear. I have always believed that vaping is basically harmless and everyone else is wrong. I guess I am now in the "It's not harmless but better than smoking" camp. But cautiously optimistic about how much better.

edit to add: Thank you so much for the link
 
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xtwosm0kesx

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WOW. Excellent piece. I downloaded the pdf for my reference. This is the best link I've seen so far and really opened my eyes to these studies. I guess I've had my head in the sand on this because I always tend to believe the "good" studies that support my views. Even though this is NOT what I wanted to hear. I have always believed that vaping is basically harmless and everyone else is wrong. I guess I am now in the "It's not harmless but better than smoking" camp. But cautiously optimistic about how much better.

edit to add: Thank you so much for the link

Glad it helped, also when you read those study conclusions, you need to understand that just because something is 'detected' in a sample does not necessarily mean that it is at a level which can cause harm.

Dose makes the poison after-all.

If scientists reported about environmental pollutants we come into contact with everyday in the the same way they do e-cigs, everyone would be walking around in a plastic bubble with massive airfilters attached.

Again the most useful studies are the ones that provide direct comparison with cigarette smoke.

The most knowledgeable in the field of THR conservatively estimate ~90% harm reduction.
 

VNeil

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If it were my Dr I would demand to see the research that indicates vaping is "just as bad" as smoking. It's that simple. If he balks I would say that I have done my own research and came to the conclusion that vaping is, at worst, far less harmful and that I have found no objective studies suggesting there is any particular harm. And that until I see research indicating such a high level of harm I will just have to find my own way through this (and keep vaping).

If that doesn't get anywhere, if he refuses to divulge his source of information, then I would either refrain from mentioning vaping or find a Dr I trusted.
 

ShelaghDB

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No, I really would do this. I would not tolerate my doctor making up science to fit their agenda. Any doctor telling me that vaping is as bad as smoking has just violated their Hippocratic Oath and needs to be reported. Any doctor that is this ignorant has no business treating me.


Then I would personally suggest you just change doctors and not make a fuss about it. You aren't going to change his opinion. Most certainly not that way. If anything he will dig in deeper so neither of you wins, nor does the Vaping community.

Its best to deal within the parameters that you are given, avoid the ones you cannot change because it will only be made worse, not better.
If you cant handle it than its best for you to simply leave and move on.
 

ShelaghDB

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Glad it helped, also when you read those study conclusions, you need to understand that just because something is 'detected' in a sample does not necessarily mean that it is at a level which can cause harm.

Dose makes the poison after-all.

If scientists reported about environmental pollutants we come into contact with everyday in the the same way they do e-cigs, everyone would be walking around in a plastic bubble with massive airfilters attached.

Again the most useful studies are the ones that provide direct comparison with cigarette smoke.

The most knowledgeable in the field of THR conservatively estimate ~90% harm reduction.



Since day one I have been in the camp that they are far healthier than cigarettes but I do believe common sense should dictate that anything you ingest into your body that does not need to be can potentially be dangerous. Whether it be food, liquor or vaping.

Lets put it this way, I am 55 and more so than any 30 year old I HAVE SEEN both the tremendous gains that both my husband and I got when we gave up smoking. Beyond the obvious of better lung capacity, healthier heart, we also had numerous small medical annoyances we could not get rid of, suddenly vanish from our bodies.
One for example, we both wore sheepskin slippers and at times boots like UGGs.
We both developed a toenail infection underneath the nail which is very prevalent in athletes, but growing so in the population of those like us that wear sheepskin slippers.
Your feet become too hot, it can breed a fungus that may never hurt you but get an in-grown toenail or some other means of entry around your toe nails and it can enter.
They become almost next to impossible to get rid of as your body adapts and does not fight the infection.
Most people let it go and their nails become pretty grotesque.
We spent a lot of money on $80 nail polishes you have to apply to the nail, sterilizing shoe trees you place into your shoe after wearing them, Lysol spray to spray into the shoes to kill any potential fungus and so on so our nails looked fine BUT it was a lot of work and money to keep them that way and very disheartening for every time it finally has almost grown out and you think you have finally beaten it, you are reinfected.
This went on for 3 years and no one could offer us any hope of ridding us of it.

We stopped smoking and it cleared up on both of us without any real effort.
My husband hadn't been healing easily when he cut himself. All would appear fine but he noticed he was taking 2-3x longer to heel than 10 years earlier.
As soon as we quit smoking, he healed normally once again.
So a few little medical annoyances we could not shake..

20-30 year olds for the most part won't have yet developed such problems.

But knowing all of that?
If I had a child, a teenager that never smoked and came home to tell me they were now Vaping, I would be somewhat angry and would do whatever I could do to put an end to it.

I would not want to see someone that had never smoked take this up for the simple reason that they are then digesting something that they have no need for so why take any chances?

If we are to be hard on scientists, lobbyists that devise studies to "prove" e-cigarettes are bad for us, then we need to be just as diligent, IF not more towards those creating falsehoods in our direction for any negatives for we will not be taken seriously and we cant afford to be wrong not even once!
 

Alto101

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Then I would personally suggest you just change doctors and not make a fuss about it. You aren't going to change his opinion. Most certainly not that way. If anything he will dig in deeper so neither of you wins, nor does the Vaping community.

Its best to deal within the parameters that you are given, avoid the ones you cannot change because it will only be made worse, not better.
If you cant handle it than its best for you to simply leave and move on.

Thanks for your opinion but I will handle my personal affairs in the manner I described. Luckily, I am in excellent health and rarely need to visit a doctor so this issie is not relevant to me at this point.

I strongly disagree with the mindset that we should not encourage doctors to do some further research. While some doctors may act in the manner that you describe, some may be willing to read a little more and might be open to changing their opinions. This is definitely worth the conversation in my opinion.
 

minitater

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Just because someone is a doctor doesn't mean they have special access to information that is hidden from those not in that profession. A doctor can know medicine, but be as ignorant as anyone else in areas that are not covered in medical school or in medical journals. As you know, people believe what they want to and this MD "wants" to believe that vaping is bad so he probably only reads "scientific evidence" that backs up his beliefs. Just like the folks that want to believe the world is flat, there are web sites that support this belief. You can take this doctor a list of studies that say otherwise, but for many folks, the truth never gets in the way of what they want to believe. I understand that you respect this doctor, but they are still human and subject to the same psychological traps that everyone else is.
 

wv2win

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I provided this information (along with other CASAA information) to my new doctor. There is a link that lists the medical professionals supportive of vaping. Although it doesn't sound like your doctor is open-minded.

I would ask him if he provides prescriptions for Chantix and if so how he can ethically do that, considering the known 30 suicides attributed to Chantix and the $270M Class Action Lawsuit settled out of court because of this drug. My previous MD, who was supportive of vaping from 2010 onward, told me he refused to prescribe Chantix unless the patient insisted and was explained the risks.

https://sciencecig.wordpress.com/move/
 

Xcighippy

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Thanks to all. Some really good reply's and advise here.
Yes, My DR has prescribed Chantix to me in the past. Didn't work. I was really caught of guard when he hit me with the "as bad as smoking" comment. It sounded so totally out of character coming from him that I didn't know how to respond at the time. Now that I think about it, all kind of things I could have said come to mind.

What really bothers me is I believe he really IS doing his patients a dis-service by saying that. I see this as proof that the ANTZ propaganda machine is indeed working! If he had told me that vaping is as bad as smoking when I first started vaping....who knows..I may still be smoking.
 

RosaJ

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Since day one I have been in the camp that they are far healthier than cigarettes but I do believe common sense should dictate that anything you ingest into your body that does not need to be can potentially be dangerous. Whether it be food, liquor or vaping.

Lets put it this way, I am 55 and more so than any 30 year old I HAVE SEEN both the tremendous gains that both my husband and I got when we gave up smoking. Beyond the obvious of better lung capacity, healthier heart, we also had numerous small medical annoyances we could not get rid of, suddenly vanish from our bodies.
One for example, we both wore sheepskin slippers and at times boots like UGGs.
We both developed a toenail infection underneath the nail which is very prevalent in athletes, but growing so in the population of those like us that wear sheepskin slippers.
Your feet become too hot, it can breed a fungus that may never hurt you but get an in-grown toenail or some other means of entry around your toe nails and it can enter.
They become almost next to impossible to get rid of as your body adapts and does not fight the infection.
Most people let it go and their nails become pretty grotesque.
We spent a lot of money on $80 nail polishes you have to apply to the nail, sterilizing shoe trees you place into your shoe after wearing them, Lysol spray to spray into the shoes to kill any potential fungus and so on so our nails looked fine BUT it was a lot of work and money to keep them that way and very disheartening for every time it finally has almost grown out and you think you have finally beaten it, you are reinfected.
This went on for 3 years and no one could offer us any hope of ridding us of it.

We stopped smoking and it cleared up on both of us without any real effort.
My husband hadn't been healing easily when he cut himself. All would appear fine but he noticed he was taking 2-3x longer to heel than 10 years earlier.
As soon as we quit smoking, he healed normally once again.
So a few little medical annoyances we could not shake..

20-30 year olds for the most part won't have yet developed such problems.

But knowing all of that?
If I had a child, a teenager that never smoked and came home to tell me they were now Vaping, I would be somewhat angry and would do whatever I could do to put an end to it.

I would not want to see someone that had never smoked take this up for the simple reason that they are then digesting something that they have no need for so why take any chances?

If we are to be hard on scientists, lobbyists that devise studies to "prove" e-cigarettes are bad for us, then we need to be just as diligent, IF not more towards those creating falsehoods in our direction for any negatives for we will not be taken seriously and we cant afford to be wrong not even once!

Tip on toenail fungus (tried and true from personal experience): Cut your toenails short and with a nail file lightly file the surface of the infected nail. Smear a generousamountof Vicks Vapor Rub on your toenails once or twice a day for a week. Make sure your toes are dry when you shower/bathe. Throw away any old shoes you may have, and wear socks as much as possible.

The darkened toenail will turn brown and this is an indication that the bacteria is dead or dying. You have to wait about 6 months for the affected nail area to grow out, keeping your toenails short and continuing to rub the Vicks on them at least once a week after the initial treatment.

You don't need dangerous antibiotics that may affect your liver. Good luck!
 

clawdog

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Nice thread. Sorry 'bout your bad experience Xcighippy, but thanks for sharing. These are the conversations that need to happen as we move forward. How to handle this subject with the people in our lives... including doctors.

I'd like to speculate on one way an MD would reach the conclusions that vaping 'is as bad as cigs' (i'd have red-lined too, if i had been in that office... not sticking up for that particular MD, just trying to Devil's Advocate some...).

The amount of localized energy available to scramble the organics used in a typical ecig delivery seems to be going up significantly as the hobby evolves. I'm not talking about DIY liquids in a clean atty at reasonable temperatures.. I'm talking about the new vapors exposed to this infantile industry and to a certain extent about/to the 'cloud chasers.' The worst of an unregulated industry may have a negative effect in a few vaping realms. The 'sub-ohm' vaping trend toward driving these energy-intense reactions to the maximum may be result in health consequences much worse than we understand right now, and I would urge caution, for much the same reason an earlier poster suggested vaping shouldn't be pushed towards (or on) non-smokers.

While I disagree with a firm stance condemning vapers (x1000 for smokers turned vapers) as suggested by the OP's Dr, I also have a worldview as a scientist which allows some validity for an MD recommending against vaping. We don't know. And some MD's are going to take the hardline stance "Don't Do It!" as their fulfillment of the Hippocratic Oath in those circumstances.

Having said all that, I backslid again. I've been vaping on and off for over a year. Frog in a well, peeps... three jumps forward, two slid back. Might be some sort of extended analogy for this conversation... I see all these signature tickers going... keep it up. I'd like a way to compute how many analogs i've avoided with ego-mounted cartos this year. :) I'm just kinda sounding off as an introduction as well. Hi.


oh... and exactly not against cloud chasing. got my first RDA on the way and i really like coil building. We need to be careful though... its a different chemical game than what's being played at the 'just enough to get a fix' level.
 

rob33

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I'm not an doctor but my wife is... I've been vaping since 2008 here is the real story, you just swapped habits. One maybe a little less harmful to the body who really knows, depends on who paid for the study. You can tell yourself anything, the fact is you are still addicted to nicotine and introducing other elements in to the lungs. Any doctor condoning vaping over smoking is just collecting your cash and running to the bank. I'll hang in there with ya, cause if I'm not getting nicotine somebody else around me is going to have a bad day with me.
 

AndriaD

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Just had a visit with my DR. for a routine yearly checkup. Last year when I saw him I mentioned I am one year off smoking and vaping instead. He said good for you, Keep it up.
This year I proudly said 2 years off ciggs. and still vaping. He gave me a stern look and said "Bad idea, Those things are as bad as cigarettes". Needless to say, I was floored. After trading results of "studies" and political agendas arguments for a while, It became obvious I wasn't going to change his mind. He finally took serious offense when I told him I thought he was doing a dis service to his patients by telling them vaping is as bad as smoking. He ended the discussion by saying "I am a doctor and study the "science" and have concluded cigarettes are bad and vaping is just as bad!"

Please arm me with counter arguments to this for my next visit. He obviously got his information somewhere he considers reputable.
Other than this disagreement, He has been a great DR whom I (used to have ) great respect for.

Yeah, I've have to get a new doc, rather than be treated by an idiot like that. :facepalm:

Andria
 

AndriaD

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My doctor's considered opinion, thus far, is that anything that can get 30-40-50-yr smokers to QUIT EASILY, is automatically a good thing. He agrees that a lot more needs to be known about it, but he also understands that the components of e-cig vapor are not in themselves harmful. My doctor's practice is mostly geriatric; he's an internist, which treats a wide variety of problems that begin to afflict the aged, and he says that the number one health problem he sees, day in and day out, is smoking -- current smokers who cannot quit and will not even consider it, it's so miserable by all the "traditional" methods, and also those who quit smoking years ago but still struggle with the damage already inflicted. He's cautiously in favor of e-cigs as a way for smokers to quit, just because they offer confirmed smokers a real way to quit that causes little to no suffering.

After 17 yrs of treating me for my asthma, the rote "you know you should quit, or at least cut down as much as possible" was pre-empted this last visit by "Guess what? I quit smoking, using e-cigarettes!" He appeared to be purely electrified. :thumb:

Andria
 

Alto101

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I'm not an doctor but my wife is... I've been vaping since 2008 here is the real story, you just swapped habits. One maybe a little less harmful to the body who really knows, depends on who paid for the study. You can tell yourself anything, the fact is you are still addicted to nicotine and introducing other elements in to the lungs. Any doctor condoning vaping over smoking is just collecting your cash and running to the bank. I'll hang in there with ya, cause if I'm not getting nicotine somebody else around me is going to have a bad day with me.

Very sad to hear this misinformation coming from someone who has vaped for five years. There is absolutely no denying that vaping is multiple times less harmful than smoking, the only issue to be settled long-term is how many times safer.
 

Xcighippy

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I'm not an doctor but my wife is... I've been vaping since 2008 here is the real story, you just swapped habits. One maybe a little less harmful to the body who really knows, depends on who paid for the study. You can tell yourself anything, the fact is you are still addicted to nicotine and introducing other elements in to the lungs. Any doctor condoning vaping over smoking is just collecting your cash and running to the bank. I'll hang in there with ya, cause if I'm not getting nicotine somebody else around me is going to have a bad day with me.

I guess that's one way of looking at it. I look at it as a FAR safer alternative to smoking. Also I look at the fact that I am now smoke free for 2 years now and feel great. I also think that there are far worse things to be addicted to than nicotine. I may be addicted to nicotine but I also see it as one of life's pleasures. Like my morning coffee. (guess that makes me a coffee addict as well) so be it. If I can get my nicotine in a safer manner than smoking I embrace it.
I would suggest that you try not to think of your nicotine dependence as a curse that effects those around you, maybe you would see it in a different light and see how vaping can be beneficial to your life.
 
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