How do/did you vape? (2018/2019)

[tailland]

It's time to put unproven stereotypes to rest.

Let's see how many of us felt good about MTL/DL right after they started vaping, and how many of us switched their vape styles over the course of time, and what they'd recommend to beginners. This may help improve the advice we can give to newcomers.

- Each pollee can mark 1 answer in each of the 3 categories.
- Choose the answer that is closest to what you'd want to say.

Please:
Tag in your friends to get this poll as many votes as possible.
The more representative it gets, the better.

 

[zoiDman]

I wasn't referring to the hardware that the manufacturers bring to market. Rather, I was referring to members of the forum who systemically, visibly with every chance they get and by using highly presumptuous arguments (and quite possibly also using fake arguments), try to steer every new vaper towards MTL.

...

Like I said. I just Ain't seeing it.

 

[tailland]

Not sure what you were hoping to achieve with this poll.

Checking on stereotypes.

One particularly persistent stereotype is that beginner vapers are (2nd assumption) at least tendentially well served with some kind of MTL-ish setup bc (1st assumption) it's "similar to smoking". You hear that pretty much anywhere, not just here on efc. I'm suspicious of both claims, simply bc I've never seen hard proof for either of them. Maybe they're true, maybe one of them, or both, are untrue. Plus, both assumed circumstances may have changed over time.

And I think that particular question above should be asked, given the fact that the number of successful converts from tobacco->ecigs isn't as high as we'd want them to be, so perhaps, our advice to beginners may be based on wrong or outdated assumptions.

Let's find out.

 

[Doffy]

I think MTL and DTL have only been terms a few years. But I did start MTL and now dtl.

A loose draw rda was 1.5mm single hole then though.

Maybe I would have been better served by DTL. But that was all mostly hushed, and limited to the sub ohm sub forum, complete with lots of stickies that it wasn't for newbies

 

[tailland]

By "our advice", I mean any vaper who'd quickly point beginners to MTL devices, operating under the aforementioned assumptions. That's not limited to this forum.

Can't speak for Anyone but Myself. But what I Needed/Wanted to use when I 1st Switched to e-Cigarettes is Vastly Different than what I used today.

And of course from your non-beginner perspective, you'll know best what you would've/should've told your beginner-self when you started vaping -> exactly what I want to get from the poll.

Maybe I would have been better served by DTL. But that was all mostly hushed, and limited to the sub ohm sub forum, complete with lots of stickies that it wasn't for newbies

Can you see the problem?

 

[zoiDman]

By "our advice", I mean any vaper who'd quickly point beginners to MTL devices, operating under the aforementioned assumptions. That's not limited to this forum.


And of course from your non-beginner perspective, you'll know best what you would've/should've told your beginner-self when you started vaping -> exactly what I want to get from the poll.

Can you see the problem?

Just say'n that I wouldn't be too Quick to make a Single Cause Casualty Claim based on Polling Data that you receive here.

IMO, for the Amount of Choices available in Todays e-Cigarette market, Ease-of-Use and e-Cigarette Size probably play a Larger Roll in whether a person can Successful go Smoke Free for 60 Days than MTL vs DTL does on the Population level.

 

[zoiDman]

A decent quality DTL setup will typically be either more expensive or too bulky to carry around for most people, or both, when compared to an MTL setup similar in quality. This IMO generally explains, at least in part, why so-called "helpful" advice aimed towards new vapers is so often nothing more than an MTL brainwash in disguise, ...

I just Don't see this Hidden MTL Brainwashing that you eluded to.

The Vast Majority of the Hardware that I see Today can be Opened Up to give a Decent DL Hit. Or Closed Down to give a Decent MTL hit.

The Inconvenient Truth IMO as to why switching rates are not Higher is because a Smoker who has No Experience with e-Cigarettes has a Bewildering Array of choices to make when they get their 1st Set-Up.

What Nicotine Level?
What PG|VG Ratio?
What Flavor?
What Ohms (What are Ohms?)
What Watts (What are Watts?)
How many Coils?
What Type of Coil?
What Alloy of Wire?
What Battery?
What Charger?
.
.
.
etc.

And the thing that Many People here on the ECF can lose track of is the Vast Majority of New e-Cigarette Users do Not come to e-Cigarette Forums seeking advise.

So what do you have? You have a First Timer making Guesses about what might work and then Buying something Online.

And then when it comes, they Try to Figure Out on their own what the heck they should be doing? All the while going thru the Struggle of trying to be Smoke Free for that 1st Week.

And If/When that Fails, Many/Most just Give Up on e-Cigarettes.

People can make this All About MTL vs DL if they want. But that seems Extremely Myopic to the Big Picture.

And it would be Nice if we could Draw a Neat Box around One Thing and then point at it say'n "There's the Problem!". But, like Most things in Life, it just Isn't that Simple.

 

[PatVapes]

I started doing MTL because on my pen style vape it was way more enjoyable that way.

I stopped enjoying it because 1) I couldn’t adjust the wattage so I kept burning my tongue 2) because my tongue felt burnt I couldn’t taste my e-juice so it got boring.

Then I switched to Reuleaux Gen3 Dual and the tank/drip tip that came with it were much larger, thus encouraging DL. I enjoyed it a lot! It’s a lot easier on my mouth and I can often feel flavors better. However, I do enjoy adjusting airflow sometimes to get a more MTL experience.

 

[dripster]

Not sure what you were hoping to achieve with this poll. Here on ecf it seems pretty obvious the fact there aren't exactly that many high wattage (100+) vapers around anyway in the first place so instead of trying to be more representative, preaching to the choir would be the more accurate description because... well, I think it's an MTL church that's pretty much crawling with MTL evangelists who flock together here mainly to chase away the clouds... it would be kinda like counting low wattage vapers in a vape shop where 95% of vaping products sold are low wattage and the remaining 5% are high in wattage capability, but are low in quality.

 

[dripster]

Just say'n that I wouldn't be too Quick to make a Single Cause Casualty Claim based on Polling Data that you receive here.

IMO, for the Amount of Choices available in Todays e-Cigarette market, Ease-of-Use and e-Cigarette Size probably play a Larger Roll in whether a person can Successful go Smoke Free for 60 Days than MTL vs DTL does on the Population level.

A decent quality DTL setup will typically be either more expensive or too bulky to carry around for most people, or both, when compared to an MTL setup similar in quality. This IMO generally explains, at least in part, why so-called "helpful" advice aimed towards new vapers is so often nothing more than an MTL brainwash in disguise, but also IMO the simple fact that not that many people want to learn how to build their own fused claptons within their first vaping month before their handmade coils that they got installed for free at the local vape shop have worn out is paramount... and then they (the self-defined "helpful" MTL aposthles) wonder why there's so many dual users a lot of whom eventually relapse back to cigarettes.

 

[dripster]

I just Don't see this Hidden MTL Brainwashing that you eluded to.

The Vast Majority of the Hardware that I see Today can be Opened Up to give a Decent DL Hit. Or Closed Down to give a Decent MTL hit.

The Inconvenient Truth IMO as to why switching rates are not Higher is because a Smoker who has No Experience with e-Cigarettes has a Bewildering Array of choices to make when they get their 1st Set-Up.

What Nicotine Level?
What PG|VG Ratio?
What Flavor?
What Ohms (What are Ohms?)
What Watts (What are Watts?)
How many Coils?
What Type of Coil?
What Alloy of Wire?
What Battery?
What Charger?
.
.
.
etc.

And the thing that Many People here on the ECF can lose track of is the Vast Majority of New e-Cigarette Users do Not come to e-Cigarette Forums seeking advise.

So what do you have? You have a First Timer making Guesses about what might work and then Buying something Online.

And then when it comes, they Try to Figure Out on their own what the heck they should be doing? All the while going thru the Struggle of trying to be Smoke Free for that 1st Week.

And If/When that Fails, Many/Most just Give Up on e-Cigarettes.

People can make this All About MTL vs DL if they want. But that seems Extremely Myopic to the Big Picture.

And it would be Nice if we could Draw a Neat Box around One Thing and then point at it say'n "There's the Problem!". But, like Most things in Life, it just Isn't that Simple.

I wasn't referring to the hardware that the manufacturers bring to market. Rather, I was referring to members of the forum who systemically, visibly with every chance they get and by using highly presumptuous arguments (and quite possibly also using fake arguments), try to steer every new vaper towards MTL.

The main important reason why switching rates are not higher is because too many people want a miracle solution that never breaks, is easier to use than a normal cigarette, and costs ten bucks (preferrably less than that). Also, when they see my clouds, a lot of them look at me like the devil just appeared in front of them, and then I can actually hear them think "that simply can't be good".

 

[tailland]

The [smoker=>MTL] stereotype is everywhere, not just on ecf, but it works in different ways depending on where it is peddled around.

If you're a willing convertee, and you rely on the advice of vape store clerks, you're bound to make a questionable purchase, and chances are, you'll be p*ssed off.

It's what happened to me in 2014, when I first got interested in vaping. After doing a short read on the internets, with people saying "you'll get good advice in your local vape shop", that's where I went. Clerk showed me 1 thing, sold me another (some stupid high-ohm ego-c thing for 60€/$67), and it was complete and utter sh*te. Since I had zero knowledge of my own about the exchangeability of the device's parts, I just threw the whole thing into the trash and held a grudge against the vape shop for advising me badly. And that's what kept me hooked on cigs for another 4 years.

If you're a willing convertee, and you seek the advice from vaping randos on the interwebs, you're certain to run head first into the "smokers should try MTL" myth.

And again, as someone with zero experiental knowledge of your own, that's probably what you'll go after. Even if you read a few voices saying otherwise, you'll likely disregard those voices, putting your trust in the majority vote of the people who you think should know best, not realising that you're being deluded by a stubborn and ultimately unwarranted stereotype.

I'm not sure that the (old) folks on ecf are especially manipulative in that regard. It rather looks to me that they just do what pretty much everyone else does - which is ofc wrong, but not malevolent.

But however you look at it, it's a non-ideal situation for beginners.

 

[Jebbn]

There is no nefarious cabal of MTL vapers trying to hijack the vaping industry.

signed, The United League of Mouth to Lung Vapers

 

[dripster]

Most seasoned vapers vape restricted DL, 25/40W. I'm vaping hotter than usual, ranging to almost 50W. When I have to make a recommendation to a noob it also depends on how much they smoke. 2 pack a day smokers will enjoy restricted DL and 0,5 ohm coils. MTL are less than a pack a day smokers. Pod vapers are getting in between, and just for convenience. The poll serves no purpose.

I was smoking less than a pack a day. But if what you just described had been the only options available to me, I would still be smoking today, with certainty, and, I made the instantaneous switch (i.e. without a conversion period of time between being a smoker and being an ex-smoker) exactly BECAUSE those weren't the only options so, to me, personally, your recommendation would have caused me to conclude "vaping is not for me; I tried to quit smoking a few times, but the struggle is just too arduous for me so now I'm just going to have to accept the fact I'm most likely going to keep smoking for the rest of my life, and I really don't get why inhaling antifreeze seems to be the new thing, because it clearly sucks from here to eternity". Bottom line, the presumptous nature of your own self-defined "non-noob" recommendation serves no purpose because I'm living proof that it doesn't serve any purpose.

 

[dripster]

For the record here, a Wotofo 25mm Troll RDA 2 with handmade dual coil Nichrome 80 fused claptons at 80 watts is what I used to make my instantaneous switch. My urge to smoke another cigarette simply just vanished, like throwing a light switch, and, I didn't even make the commitment to stop smoking, as I jumped into vaping out of pure curiousness alone so the immediate end result of that was I liked vaping so much better than I liked smoking, albeit it wasn't completely hassle-free, like, for example,

• learning how to keep my strength of my draw in perfect balance with the speed of vapor production I was getting,
• how to properly dry-burn and rewick my RDA,
• how to avoid getting a dry hit (by remembering to drip on time),
• how to not overdrip (by first taking a deep breath and relax...),
• how to tame the harshness of 6mg juice (by counting drops and dripping drops of 0mg juice straight on top of my coils each time AFTER dripping the 6mg juice),
• how to tame the extra-harshness of my first few hits right after I woke up in the morning (by only dripping a few 0mg drops straight on top of my coils, for those first few hits before resuming my aforementioned method of combining 6mg with 0mg),
• how to avoid getting sudden heavy craving attacks (by vaping more frequently and by vaping more than a few minutes beforehand),
• how to avoid getting nic sick whilst chain vaping to cope with stress symptoms (by lowering the nic strength conveniently beforehand, again taking the extra effort it takes to control the number of 6mg drops and the numer of 0mg drops separately),
• and how to keep the top part of my noob-style wicks saturated (by pulling the drip tip out of my Troll RDA 2 from time to time, as doing that gave me convenient access to be able to drip straight on top of my wicks, something that still isn't possible with most other atomizers, but that I found to be important at the time when I hadn't learned how to properly rewick yet).

 

[United States]

I started out with an e-cig when that was all there were. Each drag was a new adventure in pain, because they were awful. But the major nic buzz seemed worth it. Man, they were tough. But I hardly smoked at all. Then the cartridges kept popping, spilling juice onto my face.

My wife used them as well and the leaky cartridges caused her to develop painful blisters on her lip. (VG skin allergy.) We both agreed "these things probably won't kill you but they sure can be less than enjoyable". We both used them like a cigarette. MTL.

Some ten years later we tried the more modern pod setup. Joyetech Penguins. For me, I stayed with the mtl, but she quickly found that the free flow allowed her to get more satisfaction from direct lung style. From there as our device styles evolves our method of production remained the same. Eventually I plugged half of the Penguin intake then tried a more closed up Dolphin. She liked the free flowing Penguin setup.

We both began to be plagued by dry hits during chain vape and moved to setups able to provide better production without dry hits. I still use the Penguin for tobacco tastes. Hers is long since been given away.

I found a mtl setup I like with plus ohm juice zap-age. She likes sub-ohm using fairly low watts at about a half an ohm. (+/- a tenth or two).

I tried DTL twice. Not for me. I see the virtues for getting more nic faster. I got a nice nic buzz both times.
But it just aint for me.

There is no right or wrong way. It's like sneakers, a personal preference. It's not a thing about who gets to dictate what to whom. I see a lot of reccomendations to start out MTL and some saying sub-ohm or bust. It's more about the new user and what they prefer. And with all of the options available it can be overwhelming to the new user.
To me, I figure try a cig-a-like for a few days. If you don't dig on inhaling steam you won't dig on either drag style. Shops tend to push what sells. Some sell Jull's by the dozen. Others sell cloud machines and haaaaaate cig-a-likes.

I frequent a shop that pushes cloud machines but offer some mtl devices. No cig-a-likes in their store at all. But they do understand that the patron wants to quit smoking. I saw one lady with her son who was buying juice refill swear she'd never buy those cotton candy machines that explode. She left with a tear shaped mtl device and some nic salt. Later she was a sub-ohm'r. But she had learned that a vaping tool had potential to steer her away from cigarettes and that shop helped her do it.

One thing I do believe from experience is that acquiring your first device from a tobacco store is often times going to end up with the purchaser giving up on vaping very quickly. The junk they sell can be the beginning of a smoking cessation. But my first experience with cig-a-likes from tobacco stores caused me to say "vaping aint all that". But when I went to a vape shop they ensured I was able to leave with a viable alternative to smoking.

 

[zoiDman]

Checking on stereotypes.

One particularly persistent stereotype is that beginner vapers are (2nd assumption) at least tendentially well served with some kind of MTL-ish setup bc (1st assumption) it's "similar to smoking". You hear that pretty much anywhere, not just here on efc. I'm suspicious of both claims, simply bc I've never seen hard proof for either of them. Maybe they're true, maybe one of them, or both, are untrue. Plus, both assumed circumstances may have changed over time.

And I think that particular question above should be asked, given the fact that the number of successful converts from tobacco->ecigs isn't as high as we'd want them to be, so perhaps, our advice to beginners may be based on wrong or outdated assumptions.

Let's find out.

Can't speak for Anyone but Myself. But what I Needed/Wanted to use when I 1st Switched to e-Cigarettes is Vastly Different than what I used today.

So making Assumptions on what would have been Best for me then Based on what I like the Best Now wouldn't be very relevant.

Also, what are you Basing this statement on? "...given the fact that the number of successful converts from tobacco->ecigs isn't as high as we'd want them to be, so perhaps, our advice to beginners may be based on wrong or outdated assumptions."

Because I Hope you are not considering the Total Population Success Rate of Switching for All Smokers to the Sub-Set Success Rate of Smokers who come to the ECF seeking Advise?

Because it may be shown that this ECF Sub-Set has a Significantly Higher Success Rate as compared to the True Population. I which case, the Validity of your "Wrong Advise" assumption would be severely questioned.

 

[diagrammatiks]

I quit cigs within a week of picking a cig-a-like that I would never ever vape on today.
just buy newbies one of each device and let them decide.
it's far easier to get people to quit with high Nic content. that's pretty much the only constant.

 

[dripster]

I quit cigs within a week of picking a cig-a-like that I would never ever vape on today.
just buy newbies one of each device and let them decide.
it's far easier to get people to quit with high Nic content. that's pretty much the only constant.

High nic content and DTL simply don't mix together because it would scratch and burn one's trachea far beyond "harshness" (especially on the exhale, IME anyway). Even at just below medium nic strength (~5mg/ml) in an RDA the vapeability in pure terms of the harshness I found it could be problematic at times, especially in the morning when I had to drip a few drops of 0mg juice straight on top of my coils or else I would hurt my trachea. So no, it's not the only constant, as it isn't even a constant in any way at all, or at least it shouldn't be, but unfortunately the MTL evangelists have chased away the clouds and that's what's caused high nic content to have ultimately BECOME the only constant.

For me, coming off cigarettes took literally minutes. Like, walk into a vape shop being a smoker, walk back out again being en ex-smoker, and, knowing full well that simply isn't going to happen very frequently if high nic content is getting forced on new vapers in about the same way Brussels Sprouts for supper are getting forced on small children.

 

[dripster]

The fuss of making "fuSsed claptons" hurts. The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.