Higher Standards

[Geoffrey White]

I'm starting to wonder if all of this nonsense about certain governments banning e-cigarettes, and studies finding them to be somewhat negative is, after all is said and done, realistically our own fault for not holding the industry up to higher standards...

Let me explain:
From what I understand, in at least one e-liquid's case, we could (and probably should) have been using FDA approved ingredients (for inhalation)...

PG (or propylene glycol) has, in my understanding, been FDA approved (and used extensively) for inhalation. I'm not sure which manufacturers and distributors use the actual FDA approved PG, but I'm thinking we probably should demand that our favourite e-liquids companies begin using them.

VG (or glycerin) has also (somewhat more recently) been FDA approved for inhalation. An example of a FDA approved brand of glycerin (in this case, synthetic glycerin, to be specific) would be Dow Optim (and I'm sure there are others). Maybe we should also be making the same demand for this ingredient with our favourite e-liquids companies as well.

Nicotine has been FDA approved for inhalation, and used extensively in products such as the Nicorette Inhaler for years, so maybe we should do the same for it as well (as an extra step for DIYers, demanding that your favourite nicotine suppliers use only FDA approved PG and/or VG, as well as FDA approved nicotine is another opportunity we've missed).

Finally, it's my understanding that at least one flavour has been FDA approved for inhalation (menthol or eucalyptus, I'm not entirely certain which).
Side-note: I'm not sure if it's flavoured, or is just a fragrance, but Vick's has been using something like this in their products meant for inhalation for years, also FDA approved (as far as I know).

So, we have had the option of an e-liquid fully containing FDA approved ingredients, and we haven't demanded it.

If we could, and we could somehow make this industry standard, then we could begin to demand that researchers only use e-liquids of this standard in their studies, which I think would make everything else a moot point...

The FDA would likely approve any e-liquid containing only FDA approved ingredients (especially when studies show how harmless it would be), and then we could all focus our efforts on finding flavours that are safe, to have the FDA review, and approve them.

So...

Why haven't we been holding the industry to higher standards?

Heck, e-cigs might even be treated as medical devices, and e-liquids as medicines (okay, that's prolly nonsensical, but you get my point, I hope).

Please feel free to either educate me further (maybe by giving examples of FDA approved PG, nicotine, and flavours, like I did with the Dow Optim for glycerin), express any concerns, or even tear holes in my argument - I won't mind either way - I'm mostly just here to learn and rant anyway. lol

Oh! One last thing...
I realize some of us are paying $20+ for 30 ml of e-liquid. You are right to be concerned that the price would go up.
However, I've also seen e-liquids for as low as ~$3, and we honestly have no idea what the standard is, but my guess is that they use roughly the same ingredients, and the higher prices are mostly due to a mixture of higher labour costs where they are produced, and greed.

Final side note: Suggestions for tags to put on a thread like this are more than welcome - I'm still learning how this whole new interweb thing works. lol

 

[Racehorse]

In Canada there is ECTA:
Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada

I would say if you are looking for higher standards, they are trying to accomplish that. Members are submitting eliquid samples for testing, etc.
Certified ECTA Vendors

 

[GPC2012]

I think most of it is being backed by government and big tobacco companies, they want their money.

 

[jdrewry]

It's about the money; plain and simple.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm starting to wonder if all of this nonsense about certain governments banning e-cigarettes, and studies finding them to be somewhat negative is, after all is said and done, realistically our own fault for not holding the industry up to higher standards...

Let me explain:
From what I understand, in at least one e-liquid's case, we could (and probably should) have been using FDA approved ingredients (for inhalation)...

...

I'm a Little Confused by what you mean when you say "FDA approved ingredients (for inhalation)"?

Approved for Inhalation at What Frequency and Dosage?

Saying that a VG or PG is considered GRAS for use in an Asthma Inhaler that might be used a Few Times a Day is a Little Different from someone Habitually Inhaling VG or PG 24-7, 365.

Same with Many Food Flavorings.

Most Food Flavorings found in e-Liquids are Considered GRAS by the FDA. But Food Flavorings were Never Designed to be Inhaled on the Frequency or the Concentrations that are seen in e-Cigarette use.

Saying that an Ingredient is GRAS or FDA Approved to be Eaten, or Occasionally Inhaled in the Process of Food Preparation or Cooking is One thing. Approved to be Inhaled in the Percentages found in e-Liquids and Inhaled every Waking Hour of the Day is Another.

 

[Geoffrey White]

Let me get this out of the way, first:

I'm a Little Confused by what you mean when you say "FDA approved ingredients (for inhalation)"?

Approved for Inhalation at What Frequency and Dosage?

Saying that a VG or PG is considered GRAS for use in an Asthma Inhaler that might be used a Few Times a Day is a Little Different from someone Habitually Inhaling VG or PG 24-7, 365.

Same with Many Food Flavorings.

Most Food Flavorings found in e-Liquids are Considered GRAS by the FDA. But Food Flavorings were Never Designed to be Inhaled on the Frequency or the Concentrations that are seen in e-Cigarette use.

Saying that an Ingredient is GRAS or FDA Approved to be Eaten, or Occasionally Inhaled in the Process of Food Preparation or Cooking is One thing. Approved to be Inhaled in the Percentages found in e-Liquids and Inhaled every Waking Hour of the Day is Another.

I'm beginning to think you really are confused, or you're a troll, because this isn't the first time I've seen you try to belittle someone's argument with incomplete facts.

Did you know that PG (and as far as I know, now VG) are used for many other inhalation setups besides asthma inhalers? Including some 24-7, 365.

Also, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure no sane person is, "habitually vaping," during their recommended sleep periods (and likely not when they're working, etc.), so if you're doing that 24-7, 365... I believe most people are vaping maybe a total of 2 hours a day (combined), but I'll (mostly) agree with the 7, 365.

Considering it's clear you didn't even bother to read what I said about the flavours (because your argument doesn't even make sense based on what I said), I think we can agree you're just here to make everyone think vaping is unsafe (maybe you work for a tobacco, or pharmaceutical company - I don't know), but let me point out a flaw in your argument anyway (ignoring he fact that you ignored the facts presented by me earlier):
As someone who has worked in the food industry off-and-on most of my life, I can tell you that, depending what your specific job is, "occasional," inhalation could be up to 11 hours a day, 5 days a week - probably adding up to much more than the... Maybe 2 hours total time spent vaping (if you add it all up) each day.

There is much more to be said, but my suggestion is to actually look up information about this before you bother replying - I'm typing on a mobile phone, and this is honestly a waste of my time - I only responded because I don't want other people to listen to, and spread the misinformation.

If you want to know the frequency and dosage approved by the FDA for inhalation, go ahead and do some research - but, don't try to attack someone's argument, implying they're making assumptions, and then start making assumptions in your own argument against... It just looks silly.

 

[Geoffrey White]

On to the people actually contributing to the discussion:

In Canada there is ECTA:
Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada

I would say if you are looking for higher standards, they are trying to accomplish that. Members are submitting eliquid samples for testing, etc.
Certified ECTA Vendors

Upon first glance, it looks very interesting, but I do have some concerns so far... I don't want to list them yet, because I'm certain I can eliminate most (if not all of them) by doing a bit more research on them.

Very, very intriguing though.
Thank you very much for pointing me in their direction!

 

[Geoffrey White]

I think most of it is being backed by government and big tobacco companies, they want their money.

I'm confused... What is being backed by government and big tobacco?

 

[Geoffrey White]

It's about the money; plain and simple.

It's almost always about the money, so I think you're prolly right... I just don't know exactly what you're saying... :S

 

[zoiDman]

...

If you want to know the frequency and dosage approved by the FDA for inhalation, go ahead and do some research - but, don't try to attack someone's argument, implying they're making assumptions, and then start making assumptions in your own argument against... It just looks silly.

Not Trying to Attack or Belittle anyone's Argument.

I just Don't Understand what you Mean by "FDA Approved"?

Please feel free to either educate me further (maybe by giving examples of FDA approved PG, nicotine, and flavours, like I did with the Dow Optim for glycerin), express any concerns, or even tear holes in my argument - I won't mind either way - I'm mostly just here to learn and rant anyway. lol

 

[Geoffrey White]

Yes, I suppose I should've added, "by using factual information," to that.

 

[Geoffrey White]

Not Trying to Attack or Belittle anyone's Argument.

I just Don't Understand what you Mean by "FDA Approved"?

I meant products approved by the FDA for inhalation (like Dow Optim).

 

[zoiDman]

I meant products approved by the FDA for inhalation (like Dow Optim).

How would it have Made things any Better if Every e-Liquid Maker had used Optim?

If there are Other Ingredients in a Flavored e-Liquid that do Not have FDA Approval (Flavorings, Sweeteners, Colorants) for the Level of Inhalation the Average e-Cigarette Users Inhales them in?

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - Can you Post where the FDA has Approved Dow OPTIM?

I'm having a Hard Time finding Docs on it's FDA Approval. All I can find is that Dow Optim is considered GRAS. But then, All USP Grade Glycerin is considered GRAS.

OPTIM™ Synthetic Glycerine is classified by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) and complies with the compendial specifications in the:

United States Pharmacopeia (USP)
European Pharmacopoeia (EP)

OPTIM - The OPTIM Advantage | The Dow Chemical Company

How is Dow's Synthetic Glycerine used in pharmaceutical applications?


Pharmaceutical applications can benefit greatly from the high quality, purity, low odor, consisitent sweet taste and practically non-toxic nature of Dow Synthetic Glycerine products. These products are Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) by the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) and meet the requirements of The National Formulary (NF). OPTIMTM Glycerine 99.7%USP and Dow Glycerine 96% USP meet the requirements of the United States Pharmacopoeia (USP) and the European Pharmacopoeia (EP).

Dow Answer Center

 

[Geoffrey White]

You know what? I was a bit out of line earlier, and my only excuse for it is that I haven't been sleeping well lately, which is no excuse at all, really, so... I'd like to apologize for my attitude towards you earlier.

With that said, I am a bit concerned about the turn you're taking the thread in. This was about holding e-liquid companies (and nicotine suppliers) to a higher standard for their ingredients. I suppose using the term, "FDA approved for inhalation," was inappropriate. Maybe I should've worded it thusly:
Ingredients at least considered GRAS by the FDA, safe for inhalation by the EPA, meeting or exceeding USP standards, and currently inhaled in products already on the market which meet the appropriate standards, but preferably also approved by the FDA for inhalation.

Does that help a bit? I do also apologize for the confusion. The term, "FDA approved," does get thrown around a lot, and considering I'm Canadian, I will admit that I may know less about US government agencies than an American likely would.

Also, Dow Optim was just an example, as I don't know of any others. I'd like to know of others, though.

And, regardless, it still appears you haven't actually read my entire first post (it seems like you might've skipped the second half of it), because I've already pointed out that we could use certain flavours that I am fairly certain are either considered GRAS by the FDA or approved for inhalation by the FDA.

Now, the time and amounts being inhaled doesn't really matter, because... As I said in the first post, if we were to have higher standards for what we're currently using, I'm pretty sure we could demand that researchers use that standard as well, while performing studies on complete e-liquids, and I'm also very certain that, if we adhered to a higher standard for e-liquid ingredients, any testing the FDA would do on e-liquids containing those ingredients might very well be approved for inhalation, or at least be considered GRAS, and the EPA would also likely find them safe to inhale.

The whole concept of the post wasn't to say that someone could make an e-liquid that is de-facto FDA approved by using those ingredients... It was that someone could make the safest e-liquid possibly by using those ingredients, we as consumers could make that the standard for the industry by refusing to buy anything that doesn't meet these higher standards, and that the FDA, EPA, studies, and the general public would all probably find e-liquids to be at least considered safe for inhalation, if they were to use these ingredients.

From there, we could start asking for tests and studies on more flavours to find out which might also be considered safe for inhalation (who knows, there might already be some).

The other point is, although you say that all USP glycerin is GRAS, I don't believe that all e-liquid distributors are using USP glycerin, which is even worse...

I suppose that might be a good starting point, though... Asking that only USP grade products be used in the creation of our e-liquids, and maybe even that they try to continue to use USP standards while building each flavour (to a reasonable extent, such as vacuum sealing the bottles they sell the e-liquids in so that they don't get contaminated by the conditions they're shipped in, etc., etc.).

 

[Geoffrey White]

Maybe it's too late to be using the safest ingredients, but we can at least demand that everyone begins with USP grade materials, tries to maintain their standards, etc., and go from there.

 

[zoiDman]

You know what? I was a bit out of line earlier, and my only excuse for it is that I haven't been sleeping well lately, which is no excuse at all, really, so... I'd like to apologize for my attitude towards you earlier.

...

Hey No Problem.

Sometimes people Read Things and might take things a Different Way then the Person who Wrote it Intending it to be Taken.

 

[rudedog]

some ppl just like to stir the pot,pay them no mind and they get all crybaby cuz ya wont argue with them.i know exzactly what ya meant by FDA approved im and adult and gradiatid hi school evin thow I cood not spel reely well or good.

Let me get this out of the way, first:



I'm beginning to think you really are confused, or you're a troll, because this isn't the first time I've seen you try to belittle someone's argument with incomplete facts.

Did you know that PG (and as far as I know, now VG) are used for many other inhalation setups besides asthma inhalers? Including some 24-7, 365.

Also, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure no sane person is, "habitually vaping," during their recommended sleep periods (and likely not when they're working, etc.), so if you're doing that 24-7, 365... I believe most people are vaping maybe a total of 2 hours a day (combined), but I'll (mostly) agree with the 7, 365.

Considering it's clear you didn't even bother to read what I said about the flavours (because your argument doesn't even make sense based on what I said), I think we can agree you're just here to make everyone think vaping is unsafe (maybe you work for a tobacco, or pharmaceutical company - I don't know), but let me point out a flaw in your argument anyway (ignoring he fact that you ignored the facts presented by me earlier):
As someone who has worked in the food industry off-and-on most of my life, I can tell you that, depending what your specific job is, "occasional," inhalation could be up to 11 hours a day, 5 days a week - probably adding up to much more than the... Maybe 2 hours total time spent vaping (if you add it all up) each day.

There is much more to be said, but my suggestion is to actually look up information about this before you bother replying - I'm typing on a mobile phone, and this is honestly a waste of my time - I only responded because I don't want other people to listen to, and spread the misinformation.

If you want to know the frequency and dosage approved by the FDA for inhalation, go ahead and do some research - but, don't try to attack someone's argument, implying they're making assumptions, and then start making assumptions in your own argument against... It just looks silly.

 

[Geoffrey White]

Hey No Problem.

Sometimes people Read Things and might take things a Different Way then the Person who Wrote it Intending it to be Taken.

I still do feel bad because my responses all seem a bit edgy lately, so please take the way I've said things with a grain of salt - the general message is still what I mean to say - I just haven't been saying it in the nicest ways...

I've also been having issues with people bothering me about using e-cigs, and them being, "harmful," and people who work in the industry telling me they're, "good for you," when the truth is more likely that they aren't harmful, but they probably aren't good for you, either...

I've been saying that, you might be able to say they're on par with inhaling the air in a large city, but we don't know until the industry is properly standardized, so we can have studies that look at normal situations.

 

[Racehorse]

I've also been having issues with people bothering me about using e-cigs, and them being, "harmful," and people who work in the industry telling me they're, "good for you," when the truth is more likely that they aren't harmful, but they probably aren't good for you, either...

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. (that's why extremists in any arena of any subject often do not have much credibility in general).

Perhaps you're not aware that studies are being done, both by ECTA in CAN and by researchers here, to ultimately improve the safety of elqiuids. Sometimes, the news from some studies is good, and sometimes it isn't so good --- but the only way to forge ahead with that goal is to take the good with the bad, and combine it with your own common sense and % of risk you are willing to assume for the time being. It's a new technology and there is still a lot to learn. Progress is being made, I'm sure you've read this:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/517858-donate-dr-farsalinos-new-study.html

My feeeling is that vaping is harm reduction, so it will always be less harmful than smoking / combustion cigarettes. But I do accept a certain amount of risk for now....and that is simply that nothing is better than than NOT putting anything extra into your lungs