FDA to hold public hearing Dec. 17 on NRT regulation

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Berylanna

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Submission complete (Thanks for the feedback!). Submitted as "Individual Consumer" (the LAST choice on the list of commenter types !!)

I made a change to the heading of item #3, replicated here, and also used a spellchecker, not replicated here. :facepalm:

Senior Systems Software Engineer
Grandmother, smoker, vaper
California

I am writing you in regards to the following notice:

Docket No. FDA-2012-N-1148: FDA Actions Related to Nicotine Replacement Therapies and Smoking Cessation Products; Report to Congress on Innovative Products and Treatments for tobacco Dependence.

I have been a smoker for 40 years, and am now transitioning to “vaping” as we call it when we use electronic cigarettes.

I am also a scientist's daughter and a nurse's granddaughter, raised to revere scientists, medical researchers, doctors, and others dedicated to the impartial search for truth.

I have 3 areas I wish to address related to Harm Reduction and the FDA.

1.To inform you of my struggle with smoking:

Beginning about 10 years after I began smoking, I started trying to quit. I have tried patches
many times, cold turkey many times, wellbutrin, hypnosis, support groups and classes.

The support-group method once worked for a 5-year period, no other methods have lasted
more than a week.

After a few years of wheezing, and being afraid of strenuous exercize because I can get to
where I can't catch my breath, I was feeling hopeless because I really need the mental clarity
I get from nicotine, and the sense of reward, but my breathing was starting to get frightening.

I told my daughter that I could tell I was going to be a smoker until I die. Probably
prematurely.

She suggested “Why don't you just give up tar?”

So I started investigating electronic cigarettes, and started trying them.

9 months later, I have cut from ~24 cigarettes a day to ~7, without struggle. My breathing
has improved noticeably, but not super-significantly. I have stopped wheezing in bed at night.

In order to get to this point, I had to experiment with many different flavors and devices, and
keep up with device improvements. I do not believe I would be smoking less than 15
cigarettes a day if I were limited to the devices available even 9 months ago, or the flavors I
tried first (flavors meant to try to imitate cigarettes.)

But I am well aware that I will probably NOT improve further unless I quit smoking, so I am
actively working on that, including by trying to always vape just before smoking so that the
cigarette will have less of a rewarding impact. I'm also thinking ahead to New Years
resolutions, Lent, etc.

2. To express my concern about the increasing prominence of statements made in an FDA press release in 2009.

I am seeing people in America and in other countries who have traditionally had the highest
respect for the U.S. CDC and the U.S. FDA beginning to ask “When did the FDA stop
being scientific?” This is especially of concern to people from Brazil, New Zealand,
Singapore, and Australia, whose governments are citing the FDA as the source for the
reason to limit or ban electronic cigarettes.

The stellar reputation of American medically-oriented science bodies has, until recently,
stood as a world model of trustworthiness and fierce independence from bias. A reputation
for using the strict discipline of the Scientific Method as a way to always find your way to
the truth despite political pressures or the inevitable natural human bias.

However, the continued proliferation of misinformation from that press release regarding
electronic cigarettes, which contradicts the actual published FDA scientific findings, is
spreading, and tarnishing an organization that has traditionally done better.

Is surviving with a slowly-diminishing level of respect the best hope? Is that the best
thing for arming yourselves for the next public health crisis where your credibility could
be crucial for a good public outcome? I think my grandchildren will be safer if you build
your reputation back up, rather than let it be legitimately doubted.

3. To request you do 'focus group reviews' for documents before they are published.

As an engineer, I have to write documents that express my findings, sometimes for public
consumption. Often, I am so wrapped up in the work after concentrating on it for weeks
or months that my expression, that seems right to me, is not always successful in
delivering the correct thoughts to my readers. Fortunately, we have a department that
provides detached editors to find and correct such things before publication.

This makes me wonder about FDA statements and requirements for statements. For
instance, when people are warned not to smoke AND use NRT, did you mean “Do not use a
full dose of NRT combined with a full dose of smoking, that creates a danger of raising your
nicotine needs long-term, and also a short-term danger of a mild nicotine overdose, which
can disrupt digestion, or mimic a mild panic attack.” ?

Or did you mean “Do not use NRT to cut down drastically on smoking, because smoking is
safer than half-smoking and half-NRT.” ?

I was recently at a literary convention, and went out to vape in the sun. While I was
vaping, a man approached me and told that me his wife, a long-term smoker, had just gotten
out of the hospital after a bout of pneumonia combined with athsma. He is experimenting
with electronic cigarettes and wanted his wife to try them, hoping to cut down on her
smoking.

She is still coughing horribly when she smokes. But she refuses to try them, because
electronic cigarettes are too dangerous. She's going to play it safe and just keep smoking.

Does the FDA really want to send that message?

Thank you for your time and attention.
 
Last edited:

Petrodus

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Oct 12, 2010
7,702
8,132
Midwest
She is still coughing horribly when she smokes. But she refuses to try them, because
electronic cigarettes are too dangerous. She's going to play it safe and just keep smoking.

Does the FDA really want to send that message?
There are those here who can answer your question better than me.
The FDA doesn't care about smokers ... They do care about BP.
:glare:
 
Last edited:

Petrodus

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Oct 12, 2010
7,702
8,132
Midwest
I probably shouldn't be sticking my nose in here on this thread.
However, it appears to me, if the FDA comes down on e-cigarettes
with a heavy hand ... They will live to regret the day they
stirred up this hornet's nest.
:p

I'm not referring to the ECF but to the world-wide snow balling
E-cigarette movement and the business of E-cigarettes.
 
Last edited:

jlew

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 28, 2012
192
153
WV, USA
jspcrepair.angelfire.com
Perhaps Barylanna and jlew submit written comments to the FDA.

Already done 2 days ago :)

I submitted it via the Electronic Comments permitted on the FDA page for the hearing.

Compiled an 11 to 13 page presentation and Personal Testimony on how, after 34+ years, I've finally
been able to give up cigarettes thanks to E-Cigarettes and the benefits of such.
Also, it includes references to Professionally published papers regarding the safety of the ingredients
in e-cigs, the CSA Results of "Cigarette vs E-Cigarette" testing done on the effects on air in a closed
room, a local news article, and photos.

The Article is about a fire that destroyed 4 apartments where I live due to someone smoking in bed...
The resident also had Oxygen tanks that the fire hit which, when it exploded, caused windows to
break across the street, sent the tank through the upstairs apartment floor, and was heard over a
mile away.

Photos included personal aftermath pictures of the same incident as well as several that show items
I searched through and found in my cabinets that contain PG and VG (enlarged as "Inset" photos in
the pictures) and notes on the findings of Nicotine in Vegetables and on the relative benefits that
have been found from nicotine by studies conducted by Stanford and Harvard Universities.

I have attached a copy (edited for privacy) :)
View attachment Comments and Notes, FDA Hearing (Edited for ECF).pdf

:)

I'll work on it tonight when I get off work but my idea is probably 'way too idiosyncratic and I want feedback before I mail it.

I would be happy to read it and give feedback (for what my feedback would be worth since I
am only a mere consumer) :)


Politics and agendas
The FDA knows the truth

True, they know the truth... they just twist it to suit their agenda and that is to control
people by asserting their power to govern what choices people make regarding their OWN
lives and bodies.

Petrodus said:
When you're born in this world...You get a ticket to the Freak Show.
If you're born in America...You get a front row seat !
George Carlin

A M E N ! Brother! :)

And to further that -- From the mind of the Genius that IS -- George Carlin ... May he R.I.P. :

"Boy everyone in this country is running around yammering about their ....ing rights. "I have a right, you have no right, we have a right."

Folks I hate to spoil your fun, but... there's no such thing as rights. They're imaginary. We made 'em up. Like the boogie man. Like Three Little Pigs, Pinocio, Mother Goose, .... like that. Rights are an idea. They're just imaginary. They're a cute idea. Cute. But that's all. Cute...and fictional. But if you think you do have rights, let me ask you this, "where do they come from?" People say, "They come from God. They're God given rights." Awww ...., here we go again...here we go again.

The God excuse, the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument, "It came from God." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. Personally folks, I believe that if your rights came from God, he would've given you the right for some food every day, and he would've given you the right to a roof over your head. GOD would've been looking out for ya. You know that.

He wouldn't have been worried making sure you have a gun so you can get drunk on Sunday night and kill your girlfriend's parents.

But let's say it's true. Let's say that God gave us these rights. Why would he give us a certain number of rights?

The Bill of Rights of this country has 10 stipulations. OK...10 rights. And apparently God was doing sloppy work that week, because we've had to ammend the bill of rights an additional 17 times. So God forgot a couple of things, like...SLAVERY. Just ....in' slipped his mind.

But let's say...let's say God gave us the original 10. He gave the british 13. The british Bill of Rights has 13 stipulations. The Germans have 29, the Belgians have 25, the Sweedish have only 6, and some people in the world have no rights at all. What kind of a ....in' .......n god given deal is that!?...NO RIGHTS AT ALL!? Why would God give different people in different countries a different numbers of different rights? Boredom? Amusement? Bad arithmetic? Do we find out at long last after all this time that God is weak in math skills? Doesn't sound like divine planning to me. Sounds more like human planning . Sounds more like one group trying to control another group. In other words...business as usual in America.

Now, if you think you do have rights, I have one last assignment for ya. Next time you're at the computer get on the Internet, go to Wikipedia. When you get to Wikipedia, in the search field for Wikipedia, i want to type in, "Japanese-Americans 1942" and you'll find out all about your precious ....ing rights. Alright. You know about it.

In 1942 there were 110,000 Japanese-American citizens, in good standing, law abiding people, who were thrown into internment camps simply because their parents were born in the wrong country. That's all they did wrong. They had no right to a lawyer, no right to a fair trial, no right to a jury of their peers, no right to due process of any kind. The only right they had was...right this way! Into the internment camps.

Just when these American citizens needed their rights the most...their government took them away. and rights aren't rights if someone can take em away. They're priveledges. That's all we've ever had in this country is a bill of TEMPORARY priviledges; and if you read the news, even badly, you know the list get's shorter, and shorter, and shorter.

Yeup, sooner or later the people in this country are going to realize the government doesn't give a .... about them. the government doesn't care about you, or your children, or your rights, or your welfare or your safety. it simply doesn't give a .... about you. It's interested in it's own power. That's the only thing...keeping it, and expanding wherever possible.

Personally when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true: either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all."

:)

Petrodus said:
I probably shouldn't be sticking my nose in here on this thread.
However, it appears to me, if the FDA comes down on e-cigarettes
with a heavy hand ... They will live to regret the day they
stirred up this hornet's nest.


I'm not referring to the ECF but to the world-wide snow balling
E-cigarette movement and the business of E-cigarettes.

Oh, I believe you should be sticking your nose in on this... Everyone should if they want to keep
the "Right" (sorry George :) ) to choose what they put in their bodies.

You are right about the Snowballing effect it has created and I think that the FDA will rue the day
if they succeed in the ban of e-cigs since there are literally millions who use and buy and sell them.
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Scott gets and A++ from me for this:
III Why is the consumer always seemingly ignored in the discussions?

I have been working and involved in tobacco control and public health for over three decades and it amazes me to this day that we have not done a very good job of involving the consumer in the discussions. We all seem to know what's best for them. Yet, many surveys of the public and consumers using both tobacco and nicotine products have shown that there is a deep lack of understanding and confusion about these products. Many think that noncombustible products are as harmful as or even more harmful than cigarettes. Many also believe that NRT products such as nicotine patches, gums, and lozenges are as harmful as using cigarettes and cause cancer and other diseases.

While the issues that I have been raising in this submission will need to be considered by a spectrum of interests, the consumer's interest needs to be seriously taken into account and FDA should look at other models it has used in the food and drug arenas where the agency has often involved consumers in the discussions.
 

jlew

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 28, 2012
192
153
WV, USA
jspcrepair.angelfire.com
Proposed submission (pm feedback requested):


<my real name>
Senior Systems Software Engineer
Grandmother, smoker, vaper
<my real contact information>

I am writing you in regards to the following notice:

Docket No. FDA-2012-N-1148: FDA Actions Related to Nicotine Replacement Therapies and Smoking Cessation Products; Report to Congress on Innovative Products and Treatments for Tobacco Dependence.

I have been a smoker for 40 years, and am now transitioning to “vaping” as we call it when we use electronic cigarettes.

I am also a scientist's daughter and a nurse's granddaughter, raised to revere scientists, medical researchers, doctors, and others dedicated to the impartial search for truth.

I have 3 areas I wish to address related to Harm Reduction and the FDA.

1.To inform you of my struggle with smoking:

Beginning about 10 years after I began smoking, I started trying to quit. I have tried patches
many times, cold turkey many times, wellbutrin, hypnosis, support groups and classes.

The support-group method once worked for a 5-year period, no other methods have lasted
more than a week.

After a few years of wheezing, and being afraid of strenuous exercize because I can get to
where I can't catch my breath, I was feeling hopeless because I really need the mental clarity
I get from nicotine, and the sense of reward, but my breathing was starting to get frightening.

I told my daughter that I could tell I was going to be a smoker until I die. Probably prematurely.

She suggested “Why don't you just give up tar?”

So I started investigating electronic cigarettes, and started trying them.

9 months later, I have cut from ~24 cigarettes a day to ~7, without struggle. My breathing
has improved noticeably, but not super-significantly. I have stopped wheezing in bed at night.

In order to get to this point, I had to experiment with many different flavors and devices, and
keep up with device improvements. I do not believe I would be smoking less than 15
cigarettes a day if I were limited to the devices available even 9 months ago, or the flavors I
tried first (flavors meant to try to imitate cigarettes.)

But I am well aware that I will probably NOT improve further unless I quit smoking, so I am
actively working on that, including by trying to always vape just before smoking so that the
cigarette will have less of a rewarding impact. I'm also thinking ahead to New Years
resolutions, Lent, etc.

2.To express my concern about the increasing prominence of statements made in an FDA press release in 2009.

I am seeing people in America and in other countries who have traditionally had the highest
respect for the U.S. CDC and the U.S. FDA beginning to ask “When did the FDA stop
being scientific?” This is especially of concern to people from Brazil, New Zealand,
Singapore, and Australia, whose governments are citing the FDA as the source for the
reason to limit or ban electronic cigarettes.

The stellar reputation of American medically-oriented science bodies has, until recently,
stood as a world model of trustworthiness and fierce independence from bias. A reputation
for using the strict discipline of the Scientific Method as a way to always find your way to
the truth despite political pressures or the inevitable natural human bias.

However, the continued proliferation of misinformation from that press release regarding
electronic cigarettes, which contradicts the actual published FDA scientific findings, is
spreading, and tarnishing an organization that has traditionally done better.

Is surviving with a slowly-diminishing level of respect the best hope? Is that the best
thing for arming yourselves for the next public health crisis where your credibility could
be crucial for a good public outcome? I think my grandchildren will be safer if you build
your reputation back up, rather than let it be legitimately doubted.

3.The mistake of failing to get 'focus group reviews' for documents before they are published.

As an engineer, I have to write documents that express my findings, sometimes for public
consumption. Often, I am so wrapped up in the work after concentrating on it for weeks or
months that my expression, that seems right to me, is not always successful in delivering
the correct thoughts to my readers. Fortunately, we have a department that provides
detached editors to find and correct such things before publication.

This makes me wonder about FDA statements and requirements for statements. For
instance, when people are warned not to smoke AND use NRT, did you mean “Do not use a
full dose of NRT combined with a full dose of smoking, that creates a danger of raising your
nicotine needs long-term, and also a short-term danger of a mild nicotine overdose, which
can disrupt digestion, or mimic a mild panic attack.” ?

Or did you mean “Do not use NRT to cut down drastically on smoking, because smoking is
safer than half-smoking and half-NRT.” ?

I was recently at a literary convention, and went out to vape in the sun. While I was
vaping, a man approached me and told that me his wife, a long-term smoker, had just gotten
out of the hospital after a bout of pneumonia combined with athsma. He is experimenting
with electronic cigarettes and wanted his wife to try them, hoping to cut down on her
smoking.
She is still coughing horribly when she smokes. But she refuses to try them, because
electronic cigarettes are too dangerous. She's going to play it safe and just keep smoking.

Does the FDA really want to send that message?

Thank you for your time and attention.

<my real name>

Sounds good to me as a personal testimony. :)

I personally believe if more people would actually blast them with words and testimonies, they
might finally realize just how fed up people are.

But...

Keeping it professional and pleasant might attract more thought from them.

:)
 

mcrfanatic92

Full Member
Verified Member
Dec 2, 2012
22
11
Alexandria, VA
I'm excited to watch the hearing. I am a resident of the D.C. area, and my education is focused on policy (finishing up my graduate degree and getting ready for law school). I have also worked in healthcare for the majority of my working life. I have observed that there are many strong advocates of e-cigs, as am I, but unfortunately it is also obvious that most vapor businesses do not have the funds to rally lobbyists. It is admirable that business owners work on commenting on legislation and policy analysis. Unfortunately, a lot of the policies that have an affect on constituents are passed without anyone noticing. I'm thinking about volunteering my time, outside of my healthcare policy responsibilities, to lobby/advocate for the vapor community. Any members/vendors/business owners who think this would be helpful for the community, please get in touch with me. Again, very admirable that everyone is speaking up with regards to legislation that will affect them.
 

jlew

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 28, 2012
192
153
WV, USA
jspcrepair.angelfire.com
I'm excited to watch the hearing. I am a resident of the D.C. area, and my education is focused on policy (finishing up my graduate degree and getting ready for law school). I have also worked in healthcare for the majority of my working life. I have observed that there are many strong advocates of e-cigs, as am I, but unfortunately it is also obvious that most vapor businesses do not have the funds to rally lobbyists. It is admirable that business owners work on commenting on legislation and policy analysis. Unfortunately, a lot of the policies that have an affect on constituents are passed without anyone noticing. I'm thinking about volunteering my time, outside of my healthcare policy responsibilities, to lobby/advocate for the vapor community. Any members/vendors/business owners who think this would be helpful for the community, please get in touch with me. Again, very admirable that everyone is speaking up with regards to legislation that will affect them.

I believe it could be very helpful, especially in your position of education. :)

The more "Speakers", "Voices Of", and "Advocates For"....

More the recognition and good results, achieve we could!

Yoda_SWSB.jpg


:)
 
Last edited:

StereoDreamer

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 13, 2012
1,341
2,629
58
Columbia MD
TY Bill for posting this. Just wanted to point out one thing, If any one is planning on going, PLEASE REMEMBER TO REGISTER BY DEC 6TH. It is in MD for those looking to attend. I unfortunately cannot but I am sure others will want to.

Actually, this is a public hearing, meaning ANYONE can attend to watch and listen without registering.

Only people who wish to present must pre-register.

A large number of supportive bodies in the "peanut gallery" is always a good thing--if for no other reason than it shows the press (who will be in attendance) that e-cigs have a lot of support. Also it gives you the opportunity to see how these things REALLY work, and see first-hand the way that the FDA deals with these issues--which will hopefully motivate people to get more active in supporting vaping on a more official level like by contacting their elected officials, writing letters to the editor, and sending written testimonies to the FDA.

I missed the deadline to submit as a presenter, but I am going to try and get off work to attend as a spectator...
 
Last edited:

Berylanna

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 13, 2012
2,043
3,287
south Bay Area, California
www.facebook.com
Reminder: this is on the FDA page everybody is referring to. Since I have to work that day I'm hoping this means the webcast recording will be available when I get home from work.

Will there be an "I watched my vaping buddies testify" T-shirt?

Transcripts of the public hearing will be available for review at
the Division of Dockets Management and on the Internet at Regulations.gov approximately 30 days after the public hearing (see
section VI of this document).
A live Web cast of this public hearing may be seen at https://collaboration.fda.gov/Section918 on the day of the public hearing. A
video record of the public hearing will be available at the same Web
address for 1 year.
 

jlew

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 28, 2012
192
153
WV, USA
jspcrepair.angelfire.com
Reminder: this is on the FDA page everybody is referring to. Since I have to work that day I'm hoping this means the webcast recording will be available when I get home from work.

Will there be an "I watched my vaping buddies testify" T-shirt?

I am pretty sure that is what it means :)

It will be video recorded and made available for 1 year after the actual web-airing and hearing.

Haha - "This program was recorded in front of a live studio audience" -- lol

Only in the USA LOL :)
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
I have found that there is often a long lag between the occurrence of an FDA meeting and their posting of the recording and transcript. Their recording should be faster, but you never now.

Link Williams, who is filming the We Are Vapers moving will be attending and has permission to video-record the proceedings. We plan to make copies available for viewing via the CASAA web site.
 

TrueNews

Full Member
Dec 1, 2012
54
55
Perth, Australia
The role the UN will play in America's future ...
is a sore subject with me.

The role the UN will play / is playing in America's future is a sore subject with the whole of the Western World Petrodus.

An analogy of the UN to a child:

When the UN was a toddler, America held its' reins.
When the UN was of school age, America taught it values.
Now the UN is a teenager, pushing its' boundaries and questioning all that it has been taught.

I think it is about time America regained some 'Parental Control'.
 
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