Exploding mods -- Discussion

[Drozd]

Drozd ... No where will you find an ECF Admin stating something is safe or unsafe. Admin/mods really don't share much of their opinion due to this stance.

ECF - Being a GREAT and Essential learning tool for new and expert vapers alike is a discussion forum and should be left as such. Staying *nonpartisan* (as far as ECF management goes) is key to keeping the overall forums Neutral.

yeah but when RolyGate states:

"ECF viewpoint

...
For this reason we are now faced with a difficult choice: either to ban mods, or ban those not proven safe, or issue extended and very obvious warnings to members and website visitors.

We have asked modders to form an approvals committee, and work on a specification for safe mods and an approval process to certify mods as safe or unsafe. So far all such requests have been refused. Therefore we now seek to join with other ecigarette business owners and/or website owners to form such a committee. We expect that mods are gradually more likely to be built with safety features, and that those mods which comply with a basic and sensible safety specification will be approved and listed on all those websites with an interest in this area."

and

"ECF - action now required

• We must warn buyers about the obvious and proven dangers.
• We must publish our own interim safety specification.
• We need to decide whether to stop the promotion of mods on ECF that do not comply; or alternatively, issue strong warnings that are unavoidable by visitors, against buying a mod unless it has guaranteed safety features.
• We should advise people not to use unprotected batteries under any circumstances.
• We should publish lists of safe batteries and known unprotected batteries.
• We must try to get industry members to finally take this issue seriously.

EIMSS
An outline for an ECF Interim Mod Safety Specification. This comprises a minimum specification and does not address switch ratings (as they are almost impossible to verify), defined battery make and model (as this is a user-purchased consumable), or charger make and model (as this requires further investigation). The specification can be used to approve or reject mods advertised on ECF, and has no validity outside of ECF, though we welcome others to use it or contribute to its improvement."

Then it implies that certain mods would be ECF aproved as far as safe...and I would think that WOULD put them on the hook...because it plainly implies that ECF would be in partnership with determining what is safe...they came up with the interm safety specs...and by it being advertised at all on ECF it would be safe by those specs....
Same exact things as them stamping it as safe..

EDIT: for the record I agree they should stay out of it and remain a for information board, a learning tool, and neutral without trying to regulate anything other than general forum lawlessness ie cursing, name calling, personal attacks, etc..

 

[BuzzKill]

It seems what they are saying is that in order to SELL on ECF your product must meet these guidelines , they are not approving the sale they are setting minimum requirements to sell here ? kinda like UL in a way .

 

[NatureBoy]

How can a mod be built in such a way that it can actually protect someone from abuse or misuse? As far as I am aware, if you use unprotected batteries in ANY device, you run the risk of possible failure. Flashlights, cameras, etc. It's the batteries that fail and explode, the device has nothing to do with it.

I don't see how it can possibly be the responsibility of the mod makers to invest that kind of money and research into finding some sort of design that can prevent such an occurrence of failure. IMO, it's the responsibility of the user to make sure they use that product properly and safely, and it is their own fault if they choose not to should something go wrong - as long as there was substantial warning prior to their purchase.

So, I agree there should be some sort of warning in place to make people aware that they run the risk of potential harm if they choose to use unprotected batteries, however I strongly feel that is where it should end.

Complete interjection at this point seems a little bit of a stretch from what the responsibilities should be from a forum.

JMHO.

 

[BuzzKill]

How can a mod be built in such a way that it can actually protect someone from abuse or misuse? As far as I am aware, if you use unprotected batteries in ANY device, you run the risk of possible failure. Flashlights, cameras, etc. It's the batteries that fail and explode, the device has nothing to do with it.

I don't see how it can possibly be the responsibility of the mod makers to invest that kind of money and research into finding some sort of design that can prevent such an occurrence of failure. IMO, it's the responsibility of the user to make sure they use that product properly and safely, and it is their own fault if they choose not to should something go wrong - as long as there was substantial warning prior to their purchase.

So, I agree there should be some sort of warning in place to make people aware that they run the risk of potential harm if they choose to use unprotected batteries, however I strongly feel that is where it should end.

Complete interjection at this point seems a little bit of a stretch from what the responsibilities should be from a forum.

JMHO.

Sorry but batteries explode or vent due to a short circuit ! , that can easily be caused by a mod that does not have safety features built in . Many devices have safety features built into them ( cameras , etc. ) most flashlights do not .

It is the responsibility of the seller/manufacturer of the device to make it safe to the public , would you want a Mp3 player that could blow up in your hand ?? they use the same batteries !!! ,

The MFG. is liable for his products safety in ALL markets , the PV market is no different. To date no one has been sued that I know of, so nobody has bothered.

Trust me if lawsuits were flying around PV's would be a different product.

 

[NatureBoy]

Sorry but batteries explode or vent due to a short circuit ! , that can easily be caused by a mod that does not have safety features built in . Many devices have safety features built into them ( cameras , etc. ) most flashlights do not .

It is the responsibility of the seller/manufacturer of the device to make it safe to the public , would you want a Mp3 player that could blow up in your hand ?? they use the same batteries !!! ,

The MFG. is liable for his products safety in ALL markets , the PV market is no different. To date no one has been sued that I know of, so nobody has bothered.

Trust me if lawsuits were flying around PV's would be a different product.

I'm sorry, but I feel you're wrong. Yes short circuits can cause the malfunctions, but so can using mismatched pairs of batteries (uneven charges), as well as over-discharging. If they overheat, they can explode. This isn't only specific to short circuiting.

Comparing this situation to other devices only makes sense if you are using unprotected batteries in those devices. NO device is safe from using unprotected batteries, uneven charges, etc.. they can and will fall victim to the same failure. Show me a single camera, MP3 player or other device that you can actually put the wrong or unrecommended battery in and it will still protect you from harm if the battery malfunctions. Additionally, show me any manufacturer that would actually be liable for such misuse.

As long as sellers of mods are clear to inform their customers of the potential danger of misusing their devices, they are not liable. You can't put the wrong battery in a cellphone and expect the manufacturer to be responsible if something goes wrong. It's the exact same thing here.

Simple solution to this issue is to have a disclaimer and legal agreement for the buyer that would have to agree to before purchasing the device.

 

[four2109]

Users who do not understand the mini bombs they are using

Sound more like ECF is calling on the suppliers to police themselves. Most of their customers buy those high priced mods because they don't know enough about them to build their own. You can build your own anyway you want. They just want the ones sold to be as safe as possible and for buyers to be made aware of the risks. It makes sense.

 

[NatureBoy]

Are short circuits actually occurring from the mechanical, home-made switches? Has that been discussed somewhere on this forum? I only remember seeing threads about misuse of batteries.

What if a mod is built with an off the shelf, CE approved switch?

 

[juicefreak]

I think it's a very smart move by ECF to protect themselves and their users. What i'm surprised at is it wasn't implemented sooner. When you have vendors selling their wares with no regulation other than self-regulation and ECF is supplying a website for those ventures, to me that blares of liability. This forum went beyond a 'discussion' forum when it started promoting products through their vendors.

Do juice suppliers that cut their own juices meet minimum quality standards? have a clean room?

it's one thing to say buyer beware, but it doesn't strip liability. We all want e-cigs safe. That should come before the hype.

kudos to ECF. I can't believe vendors are screaming like this is THEIR forum. It's a community.

 

[BuzzKill]

The batteries overheat due to excess discharging , they are being used in an inherently unsafe condition to start !! most batteries used are rated @500-700ma max draw , we are drawing 2 amps in some cases .

The protection circuit ( not all are equal ) will cutout around 2.5-3 amps some lower this depends on the design .

No overall statement covers the condition.

Yes the switches can short , many are a piece of metal that contacts the body , the switch tip is HOT , lay it on a metal table = SHORT , non conductive switches are a different case.

CE is a European spec. UL is the USA spec. , UL approved switches cannot have an expose contact like the homemade ones .


PS: those companies that have protection built in and the user messes up STILL get sued .

 

[four2109]

I haven't heard the vendors screaming. The discussion here is members.. and one unregistered supplier. ECF doesn't promote the products, the suppliers do.

 

[NatureBoy]

The batteries overheat due to excess discharging , they are being used in an inherently unsafe condition to start !! most batteries used are rated @500-700ma max draw , we are drawing 2 amps in some cases .

The protection circuit ( not all are equal ) will cutout around 2.5-3 amps some lower this depends on the design .

No overall statement covers the condition.

Yes the switches can short , many are a piece of metal that contacts the body , the switch tip is HOT , lay it on a metal table = SHORT , non conductive switches are a different case.

CE is a European spec. UL is the USA spec. , UL approved switches cannot have an expose contact like the homemade ones .


PS: those companies that have protection built in and the user messes up STILL get sued .

This is a new one for me, I was unaware of the excessive stress the atomizers can put on a battery. However, if the atomizer's are designed to draw from the normal e-cig batteries as they've been built, i wonder how different they really are from li-ion rechargeables such as the 18650, 14500, etc.. the only instances ive seen of battery failure has been from mismatched voltages and unprotected batteries, not from excessive draw from the atomizers. if that were truly the case, i think we'd see a lot more instances of failure, given that there are a ton of mods in the hands of people already, most of which using in a responsible way.

If a battery shorts out because of a design flaw from the mod builder, then i absolutely agree there is liability there. i have yet to see someone show this to be an issue though. has this actually happened to someone? if + and - contacts are isolated from each other, i dont see how a switch can cause a short, if the connections are contained within the device. i'd like to see some examples though if this has happened.. i'm not doubting you, i just haven't read about it yet.

regarding the CE cert.. i just grabbed a switch off my desk to look for the approval stamp, that was on there... couldnt see the UL stamp, and couldn't remember it either.. but you get my point.

any failure that's happened in cell phones, laptops, etc, has been because of defective batteries. again, it rests on the batteries. you said those kinds of devices have built in protection to protect the user, but case in point none of those malfunctions would have happened had those devices had built in protection in the devices themselves (if that's even possible, which i dont think it is!). same thing with the mods. the batteries are the things that are malfunctioning. if people are informed of the inherent risks, and they choose to use the batteries in an otherwise unrecommended way, it is their responsibility of their consequences.

the only lawsuits that i am aware of are ones that pertain to malfunctioned batteries supplied by the manufacturer (sony, apple, etc) and that are specifically recommended for their devices. had a person used an aftermarket, unapproved battery in that device, those manufacturers would not be liable, as far as i know.

 

[BuzzKill]

Didn;t Sony have burning batteries in some laptops for a while ? I think that was due to no protection in the power circuit ? I'll look into it .

The batteries are failing in most cases I know of ( in many devices ) because of misuse and no protection , that's why the MFG put in protection circuits after the fact.

Read this , some decent info
http://corrosion-doctors.org/Secondaries/li-ion-reac.htm

 

[NatureBoy]

Didn;t Sony have burning batteries in some laptops for a while ? I think that was due to no protection in the power circuit ? I'll look into it .

The batteries are failing in most cases I know of ( in many devices ) because of misuse and no protection , that's why the MFG put in protection circuits after the fact.

From what I remember, I thought it was because of the batteries being defective, not that of a flaw in the laptop itself. I do recall seeing a massive battery recall list because of it.

Your second point, I agree 100% and I think it's in everyone's best interest for the suppliers of mods to stress the importance of using only protected batteries (as well as proper use such as even charge, etc), as some have already started to do. Anything further than that, there's little else they can do, and I feel it's not the forum's responsibility or place to impose restrictions.

 

[Blaze]

My .02 worth:

Seeing as the intent of the ECF in the first place (at least of my opinion) is the discussion and education of PV's, therefore my opinion is this:

How about we, as a group of educated adults (I'm assuming ) take it upon ourselves to "police" mods and every aspect of them as suggested. A great start for this would be (at least for the time being until a better alternative is come up with) to start a completely new section of the ECF, wherein the sole purpose is to provide information of "safe" distributors, not only of mods, but also mod parts (as in "where can I get...."). This would need a way to be able to be confirmed and proven, and I'm open to suggestions (as we ALL should be) on how to accomplish this since I'm at a loss for this at the moment....

The "safety committee" is a great idea, but would need to be comprised of well known, trusted ECF members AS WELL AS makers/distributors of "mods" and mod parts.

I think it's time we, as the Ecig community, step up and not only make sure the products WE'RE using are as close to 100% safe as they can get, but make sure of the same for future community members.

 

[BuzzKill]

My .02 worth:

Seeing as the intent of the ECF in the first place (at least of my opinion) is the discussion and education of PV's, therefore my opinion is this:

How about we, as a group of educated adults (I'm assuming ) take it upon ourselves to "police" mods and every aspect of them as suggested. A great start for this would be (at least for the time being until a better alternative is come up with) to start a completely new section of the ECF, wherein the sole purpose is to provide information of "safe" distributors, not only of mods, but also mod parts (as in "where can I get...."). This would need a way to be able to be confirmed and proven, and I'm open to suggestions (as we ALL should be) on how to accomplish this since I'm at a loss for this at the moment....

The "safety committee" is a great idea, but would need to be comprised of well known, trusted ECF members AS WELL AS makers/distributors of "mods" and mod parts.

I think it's time we, as the Ecig community, step up and not only make sure the products WE'RE using are as close to 100% safe as they can get, but make sure of the same for future community members.

Well said Blaze , determining what is considered " SAFE " is an issue , you could use UL guidelines ?? this would require tests of each device. !!!!

 

[Sir_Lawrence]

This whole discussion is hitting close to home for me. I believe that all the people and companies who build mods want them as safe as possible. Yes, I think that venting batteries is very important. Using the correct batteries that the mod was designed for, and using protected batteries is very important, but that is out of everyone's hands except the user.
Here is the problem I'm having. Adding more switches to a mod adds a greater risk of the unit shorting out. And to stop a production of mods until they have these switches installed is a very touchy subject. Imagine the SB having another switch added to it's side. And who's to say the user would actually use the kill switch?
Mods, or any e-cig, should not be transported in your pocket with the atty still connected. This is common sense. For the small e-cigs, the juice can leak into the battery causing it to short. If the atty is not connected, there is "no load" on the batteries. In mods, the best way to transport them is with the atty disconnected from the battery. And, of course, the safest way is to take the batteries out.
I feel it is up to the modder to instruct how to use his device in the safest possible manner. But, once the consumer gets it, it is up to them to follow those instructions.
Electronic devices will never be 100% safe. We can only guide the user in the safest way to use it. IMO, adding more switches would not make the user use them. It only puts a dent into a design that could cause more shorting and battery failure. Knowledge provides the safest platform for using e-cigs, mods, even the batteries themselves. It is up to the modder to make his device as safe as he can. It is up to the user to follow instruction... like an adult. Hopefully we can keep everyone safe.

 

[CaSHMeRe]

Are short circuits actually occurring from the mechanical, home-made switches? Has that been discussed somewhere on this forum? I only remember seeing threads about misuse of batteries.

What if a mod is built with an off the shelf, CE approved switch?

90% of shorts happen at or within the atomizer itself ... You are talking about super tiny leads with a piece of silicone isolating hott from ground.

I think it's a very smart move by ECF to protect themselves and their users. What i'm surprised at is it wasn't implemented sooner. When you have vendors selling their wares with no regulation other than self-regulation and ECF is supplying a website for those ventures, to me that blares of liability. This forum went beyond a 'discussion' forum when it started promoting products through their vendors.

Juice ... There is quite a large gap between Advertising/Promotion vs. Actual Selling ... Vendors don't *sell* their wares/mods/products on ECF, they use it as an advertising tool, just like Google Adwords. Saying ECF is liable & responsible for Advertisements and Promotions would be like saying ECF is also responsible for the Google Advertisements that pop up. ECF carries ZERO liability minus the income they do take in (Member Donations and Vendor Sponsorships) Otherwise ... Its a discussion forum. You can't sue CNET for a cell phone review you saw on their website

How about we, as a group of educated adults (I'm assuming ) take it upon ourselves to "police" mods and every aspect of them as suggested. A great start for this would be (at least for the time being until a better alternative is come up with) to start a completely new section of the ECF, wherein the sole purpose is to provide information of "safe" distributors, not only of mods, but also mod parts (as in "where can I get...."). This would need a way to be able to be confirmed and proven, and I'm open to suggestions (as we ALL should be) on how to accomplish this since I'm at a loss for this at the moment....

The "safety committee" is a great idea, but would need to be comprised of well known, trusted ECF members AS WELL AS makers/distributors of "mods" and mod parts.

I think it's time we, as the Ecig community, step up and not only make sure the products WE'RE using are as close to 100% safe as they can get, but make sure of the same for future community members.

The problem is, there's ZERO scientific data backing someone's *opinion* What's to say that certain individual/user or group of users doesn't have it out for that vendor? Who is to say someone IS or IS NOT trusted and/or an expert? Without scientific safety data, governing of anything should be null and void. Otherwise, you are simply giving an Opinionated Review ... Something there is already a board for

 

[NatureBoy]

90% of shorts happen at or within the atomizer itself ... You are talking about super tiny leads with a piece of silicone isolating hott from ground.

Oh great! Given that the majority of atomizers are coming from Chinese manufacturers with questionable QC standards, you've given me yet another reason to be paranoid. Thanks! lol...

 

[CaSHMeRe]

hahaha ... Sorry NatureBoy Just stating facts bud (or atleast what I have seen over the past year of selling *mods*)

You'd be amazed at how easy it is to short one out .... That silicone gasket really is quite sad ... I used to see this piece *glued* in place, however, it no longer is. Just the nature of the beast really

 

[BuzzKill]

Your worst case scenario is a shorted atty / connection and a stuck/failed or ON switch. ( I had an 801 adapter that shorted out the batts when the atty was attached ! )

Without some kind of protection circuit in line the batteries WILL heat up due to over discharging.

whether this is done on the battery or in the device it needs to be there IMO

Another scenario is an device that is stuck ON (in your pocket etc. ) with the atty attached , then the atty shorts out ! ( very plausible ) the device is now unattended and in a heating battery situation with potential.

So do these devices need a protection circuit ??? my vote is YES