EcigExpress's Tobacco Express Flavors & diacetyl or diketones
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There are risks, and there are known risks. That's a qualifier. You cannot avoid ALL risks in life. Even breathing you inhale crap if you live in a suburb. That doesn't mean you have to purposely inhale a substance with a questionable effect, especially when it's unneeded to vape.
Which is why erring on the side of caution **where vendors are concerned** is prudent. People can do what they want, but vendors have a higher responsibility to the public.
I don't buy pre-made either and never have. I was referring to their flavor line. Not juice line, in case that wasn't clear.
No, I know they aren't but I expected more out of them b/c the owner who started it worked in a hospital and was a smoker, and when he discovered vaping he wanted to serve the vaping community. He's not some random company. I expected more out of him due to his story he posted on the site. I was disappointed. Case closed.
Cute. I do. And thought I was there too, since some flavors have a warning that they contain diacetyl. Which gives the impression to shoppers that flavors without the warning do not carry it, like TFA's site. But no, it's completely inconsistent and unreliable. Yet it's a top vendor... I saw references to them here at ECF which is why I even bothered. They don't deserve the reputation they have, imo. They do ship fast. And they were honest in the chat. But that's poor recompense for everything else.
So yes. Shame on me.
Disappointed why?
For every study you read it is bad I can find one that says it's not. So what's a vendor to do? What do you want them to do next? When does it end?
The best thing for anybody is not to inhale anything into their lungs. I enjoy vaping so I can assume the risks. If you can't move on.
Just a note: There is full disclosure on the Flavor express line that it is made in China (it is on the flavor description page). Flavorart is touted to be the safest flavorings but they only test for diacetyl and AP. They do not disclose Acetoin levels.
A copy/paste of the info on Djrum (flavorexpress)
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Pronunciation: dee-jay rum
Brand Name: Flavors Express
Product Number: 7-13-0178-00-08-99
Size: 10ml
Ingredients: Contains propylene glycol and artificial flavor.
Made in China
A copy/paste of the info on Djrum (flavorexpress)
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Pronunciation: dee-jay rum
Brand Name: Flavors Express
Product Number: 7-13-0178-00-08-99
Size: 10ml
Ingredients: Contains propylene glycol and artificial flavor.
Made in China
Just to be clear, ECX's flavor line for tobacco flavors at least, is called Tobacco Express, not Flavor Express (just in case a "Flavor Express" line exists somewhere). And one more point of clarification... as far as Tobacco Express goes, the flavors are from all over, not just China. Some are made in USA. But as it states in the OP, ECX has no idea if ANY of their flavors contain these chems and in fact they assume some if not many do.
And yes, that was MY mistake that I didn't scroll down the page far enough to see the DJ RUM flavor was made in China, as that was another bad assumption on my part, that *respected* US vendors (as I felt ECX was), would not use China, and I had viewed some of their other flavors that happened to be USA-made.
As to FlavourtArt not revealing acetonin, do you have a link? I find that significant.
IAC I have been vaping 3+ years and have always used TFA for all of these reasons. (Just don't like their tobacco flavors, which is why I ventured out to ECX.) TFA isn't perfect but they have tried to stay current and be forthcoming about diacetyl, acetonin and A/P as info comes to light about these chems. Some things can be confusing... like their dicacetyl-free formulas are prefixed by a "DX" e.g. "DX Banana Cream" .... but after they made those, the concerns about acetonin and AP came to light... so while DX flavors are ALL dicetyl-free, some have acetonin or AP (others don't) but where acetonin or AP are present, TFA notes it for customers. And for that they have kept my business over the years. Even if I decide to use flavors with these chems, I want to know which flavors don't have them. Buyers can then make an informed decision rather than the vendor making it for them.
To this end TFA has also revealed that the chem used for buttery notes, when not diacetyl's replacements of acetonin or AP, is butyric acid. And this was posted on their site in July 2014 about that:
"There is another custard note that has not had as much attention as the others, and that ingredient is Butyric Acid. Butyric acid is found naturally in butter and milk, as well as certain cheeses, and it is sometimes used at low levels to accentuate a butter note. It is not as commonly used at as high levels as Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl, because if overdone it can lend a rather unpleasant aftertaste to a flavor. There are companies who are now using it more in place of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl, but in reality Butyric Acid can also be irritating when inhaled." (http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html)
Reading this [last year] DID make me wonder if just vaping diacetyl isn't better than the stuff used to replace it... which might surprise mgmrick to hear me say. In the meantime though, until more research is done that ends the controversy once and for all, I do maintain vendors have an obligation to the public to provide information on these chems so that the buyer can make an informed decision. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer when it comes to freedom of choice. But without info, there is no choice available.
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Inhaling air where I live in LA County is harmful. But it doesn't cause popcorn lung. Nor does VG or PG. PG is a known irritant and many ppl have mild allergies to it... I vape 100% VG b/c I prefer it. This is again, the difference between "risk" and "known risk" ... no one has proven vaping VG or PG will cause the kind of thing alleged with diacetyl. Maybe the reports are faulty. If so, that will come out in the long run. In the meantime we have a right to know which flavors contain it. I may want to vape some D-free flavors some of the time, and maybe won't mind vaping a D-flavor once in awhile... or I may even decide I want to avoid the substitutes for D down the line, if I personally feel they are worse than D. All to say, I don't want the vendor keeping me in the dark, not providing me with the info I need to make my own decisions. Full disclosure is the best policy when NO ONE REALLY KNOWS what's least risky, and we're all just guessing by what's been presented so far, knowing that picture will change as time passes and new info comes to light.
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Here is the FA link.
http://flavourartnaflavourreports.com/
I was going by their header description for this brand.
http://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-e-liquid/diy-e-liquid-flavors/flavorsexpress.html
http://flavourartnaflavourreports.com/
I was going by their header description for this brand.
http://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-e-liquid/diy-e-liquid-flavors/flavorsexpress.html
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I 'get' what the op is saying, but...
What is going to cause bans, regulations, whathaveyou, is the loss of tax revenue. Simple.
Been at this since '09 and through too many scares to count.
What is going to cause bans, regulations, whathaveyou, is the loss of tax revenue. Simple.
Been at this since '09 and through too many scares to count.
I'd asked for a link b/c I found this significant [though I don't buy FA], but then looked at links NoFumes provided earlier in this thread to FAs testing, and there was no acetonin listed, just as you state. So cancel the request.
As I have said, I buy TFA, but that IS remarkable and makes me wonder why they don't reveal that, so I emailed them out of sheer curiosity to ask. But again, for myself I will be sticking to TFA. Whether I buy flavors without DAP/A, or with, or both... at least I will know what I'm getting so that as more info and studies are done I know what's in which of my flavors. I am seeing a future where ALL chems used in a flavor should be listed on the label, just like with foods we eat. B/c it won't be ending with these few... and in the future there might even be "GOOD" chems ppl want in their flavors instead of prior ones that create the same notes. Chems proven to be less harsh, or even beneficial some how. It can slice both ways.
How is full disclosure going to = loss of tax revenue? You think ppl who feel so much better vaping are going to stop if they see a note on a juice or flavoring that says it contains this chem or that? They'll just look for another flavor, if it concerns them.
And how does "loss of tax revenue" = "bans and regulations" ???
Your own words ...But what will happen to vaping (legally) if people were to begin setting sicK?
Legal = restrictions/bans where I come from.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement
^^^ is a start point to understand the impact of lost tax revenue. Plenty of info on the web. The government does not care if people get ill. Cigarettes are still sold, aren't they? They only care about tax revenue and truthfully, social security and Medicaid are counting on us dyeing young.
In this capitalist system, we vote with our wallets. You are not happy with this company. Fair enough, shop elsewhere. Why keep bashing them?
This did not answer my question and is a complete non-sequitur AFAIC. Fear of gvmt taxes is no reason to promote vendors to not disclose potentially harmful chems... or even just make a policy of disclosing ALL chems in a flavor like we have on food labels.
If you interpret what I have been saying about ECX as "bashing" then you must think that the points I brought up are extreme enough to warrant such a term. I simply pointed out they didn't bother to vet flavors in their flavor line of potentially harmful chems, and that their site has inconsistent warnings about OTHER labels that contain diacetyl. I am reporting the facts and giving my personal opinion that I find that irresponsible on their part. If you see that as bashing, that's a characterization you'll have to own yourself. AFAIC it's discourse. Which IS the purpose of a forum.
Jeez I just have no comments for you......
You sound way too paranoid.....( I would suggest staying out of a car.... heck more people get killed in them daily)
Just vape...... or don't vape
You sound way too paranoid.....( I would suggest staying out of a car.... heck more people get killed in them daily)
Just vape...... or don't vape
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