Coffee shop altercation.

[Muramasa]

but i liked the ideas many gave.
+1 for you fellow lavacorps. Nice handling the situation.
I would have gone all out breaking his ipad into ipads.s.s.s.s.s. =X
Especially after getting permission.
but well. this wouldn't happen over here in my locality.... cuz its banned haha~~

 

[studio52]

We as vapers are going to run into this more and more, until the public is more educated, and even then there will be some people that just want to cause an issue. You did well by asking the owners, or mgr. for permission.

 

[GitMoe]

Stories like this are exactly why I stealth vape in public almost all the time. I just don't wanna be in these situations whether Im right or not. That guy could've just punched you and then it's a whole different problem. I don't want people giving me a hard time when I'm just trying to go about my day doing the same thing as everybody else. If I'm vaping in public openly and somebody wants to ask me a question about it then I'm OK with that but IME it's more frequently people telling me to knock it off than inquisitive onlookers. I actually did get in a fight with a guy at a wedding last summer over vaping and that was the end of me trying to make a point in public. It's just not worth it...

 

[jpracing]

Yep, packed up his ipad, got up and came and sat at my table and got right in my face. Fists were clenched, but I really didn't want to get into a fight at that moment. If I had a few beers in me, who knows...

WTF!!!! That is the outcome when a ..... and an idiot get together and have a child.
I live in a country where concealed carry is permitted by law and what he did
would have definitely given him a full face of Glock.
But, you are correct in everything that you did both for yourself and for the vaping
community! Bravo!

 

[jpracing]

Check my sig. lettering in orange.
Never more true than this situation.

Stories like this are exactly why I stealth vape in public almost all the time. I just don't wanna be in these situations whether Im right or not. That guy could've just punched you and then it's a whole different problem. I don't want people giving me a hard time when I'm just trying to go about my day doing the same thing as everybody else. If I'm vaping in public openly and somebody wants to ask me a question about it then I'm OK with that but IME it's more frequently people telling me to knock it off than inquisitive onlookers. I actually did get in a fight with a guy at a wedding last summer over vaping and that was the end of me trying to make a point in public. It's just not worth it...

 

[chemsoldier83]

People like that are normally cowards at heart. If you had asked him to take it outside with you he would have ran.

People like that amaze me. Who sits in a coffee shop all ...... off waiting for reason to start problems? Its a relaxed atmosphere.

 

[sailorman]

You know at times like that having a sense of humour would'nt hurt. If i was in your shoes at the time i would probably have said something that was completely unrelated to what he was saying like "well thats just racism,this is because i am black right,for 400 years we as a people have had to endure abuse from people like you". Insane but funny. I would'nt be able to take people like that seriously. I would have said a whole load of other stuff just for fun, not offensive either. He would probably have cracked eventually. But if he did'nt he should quit and **** off while he's doing it.

That's beautiful!! Just ramble on about something totally unrelated. Nobody is prepared to argue with an apparent nut. If they don't go into an uncontrollable rage, all they can do is stutter and stammer in frustration and go away shaking their head. I'm going to have to remember that. Beautiful!

 

[sailorman]

We as vapers are going to run into this more and more, until the public is more educated, and even then there will be some people that just want to cause an issue. You did well by asking the owners, or mgr. for permission.

Actually, I think we're going to run into it less and less as people get more accustomed to seeing people vaping and learn that vapor is not smoke. There will always be a hardcore anti-tobacco brigade, but most people, even the strident anti-smokers, are surprised to find out that it's not as offensive as they had imagined, and certainly not worth confronting someone about.

For each person you explicitly educate, there are other bystanders who are being exposed to vaping for the first time and are figuring out that it's no big deal, even if they're not particularly curious. The minority of hardcore anti-tobacco zealots are not worth worrying about. There's nothing you could do or say to sway them anyway. The trick is that we have to demonstrate to the vast majority of otherwise indifferent people that it's not the public nuisance the zealots would have them believe it is.

 

[congaman]

I would have slapped him and shouted "how dare you" and then told management that he offered me sex for money!

 

[MickeyRat]

This might surprise you, if you've seen some of my other posts about vaping in public but, I don't think you did the right thing at all. I think you should have asked why the guy had a problem with it. I think you should have taken the opportunity to educate him about it, if he was open to it. The thing is, your response guaranteed he would not be open to it and he probably never will. Because he continued to object, you should have stopped vaping or left. The thing everyone needs to understand is that unless we convince people, these things are going to be just as banned as smoking is. That is the most likely outcome no matter what we do.

Getting in someone's face and stomping your feet and insisting you can do it whether they like it or not, might feel good but, you just insured that they will be against vaping till the day they die. They will also try to convince their friends to be against it too. The odds are a lot better that he will win in the end than you will. Smokers used to insist on their rights too ya know.

I'm 100% for vaping in public but, I'm 100% against doing it in anyone's face and I don't care if they are wrong. There is such a thing as being dead right. You might have won a battle but, you helped lose the war.

 

[9ball_AJ]

Mickey, I completely see your point of view, however I disagree and I beleive you may have misconstrued the situation:

This might surprise you, if you've seen some of my other posts about vaping in public but, I don't think you did the right thing at all. I think you should have asked why the guy had a problem with it. I think you should have taken the opportunity to educate him about it, if he was open to it. The thing is, your response guaranteed he would not be open to it and he probably never will.

You're right that I should have initially addressed his objections to determine his specific issues with vaping. At that point i might have been able to educate him and change his opinion, however I don't feel that would have gone very far. But you never know and it was probably worth a shot.

Because he continued to object, you should have stopped vaping or left. The thing everyone needs to understand is that unless we convince people, these things are going to be just as banned as smoking is. That is the most likely outcome no matter what we do.

He did not continue to object. I obtained permission from the employee, and he did not say another word until 30 min later when he came over and got in my face and the argument commenced.

Getting in someone's face and stomping your feet and insisting you can do it whether they like it or not, might feel good but, you just insured that they will be against vaping till the day they die. They will also try to convince their friends to be against it too. The odds are a lot better that he will win in the end than you will. Smokers used to insist on their rights too ya know.

I did not get in his face about it, I did not "stomp my feet" and insist that I had the right to do anything. I went about my conversation until he came over and got in my face. Very aggressively I might add. I tried to reason with him at first, explaining that if he would have been civil to begin with, I would have gladly stopped. To me this was not about my right to vape, this was about common decency. I have been in several situations where people around me were not comfortable with me vaping nearby, and I am more than willing to oblige. This guy was just a plain ... about it.

I'm 100% for vaping in public but, I'm 100% against doing it in anyone's face and I don't care if they are wrong. There is such a thing as being dead right. You might have won a battle but, you helped lose the war.

At no time did I vape in his face, or in his immediate vicinity. During the conversation my PV was in my pocket. The contents of the argument had very little to do with vaping. I sat there and took insult after insult, when my instincts told me to attempt reason, and upon failure of reason to get violent. My better judgement stopped me from becoming violent, so I got up and walked away.

On another note, I absolutely appreciate your point of view, and obvious passion on the subject. I do want my actions to help the vaping community in a positive way.

 

[sailorman]

Naturally, Rat, I must respectfully disagree. That guy didn't sound like he was open to being educated. He was a bully who wanted to exercise power that he thought was bestowed upon him by law. He will be against vaping until the day he dies regardless of what we vapers do, because vaping deprives him of the opportunity to flex his muscle against what he perceives as smoking. The fact that it wasn't smoking didn't deter his zealotry. His attitude was clear by the way he came over to the OPs table. Who is genuinely offended by vaping would do that?

Also, the OP wasn't doing in the guy's face until the guy went out of his way to put his face where the OP was. It might be different if the OP was sending clouds of vapor over to the guy's table. AFAIK, that's not how it went down. The bully's behavior was not that of someone who was interested in listening to reason.

What's the guy going to tell his friends? That he failed to bully a vaper out of a coffee shop? I don't think so. When bullies are stood up to, they don't go telling their friends about it. OTOH, had he succeeded in bullying the OP into leaving, he would have regaled his friends with tales about how he ejected someone from the coffee shop.

As it is, it's just as likely that this guy will think twice before he decides to act as a one-man smoking patrol again. The next time he thinks about trying to evict someone who is lawfully vaping, maybe he'll remember this failure of his. And the vaper so spared the wrath of this bully might then have an opportunity to educate that he wouldn't otherwise have, due to being terrorized by this thug.

 

[Maestro]

It's always best to try and educate these guys and try to win them over. Granted, with some you might as well be talking to a rock, but it's best to try to avoid a confrontation if possible. Unfortunately, situations like this are going to work against us. If this keeps happening in that place, eventually the owner is going to ban it. I know it's wrong, he needs to be educated and all that, but all the owner wants is to keep the peace and if something is causing a problem, he's going to ban it. Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. He will take the easy way out so he doesn't have to deal with it.

 

[newq]

You show much more restraint than I would have.

As others in this thread have said, " I would have resorted to making him pick up his teeth."

Many of you would imagine that I am aggressive or hot headed, however I M generally even keeled and easy going. I am the guy you want to ask for help when you are counting on a total stranger to help you out in a jam. I personally do not react well to disrespectful obnoxious or targeted insults. I am much like a battery going into thermal runaway. Once I start burning I seeth and usually need cool down time alone to settle down. However if someone were to antagonize me to my face and push the issue I would have said little and as the anus pushed the issue I would have turned as if to get up and walk away and came right back around driving him from his chair straight to the floor and then would have been over top of him making sure he wasn't able to get up and retaliate.

People so frequently underestimate the person they are dealing with. Just because I am polite and friendly doesn't mean I don't have an impulsive temper when provoked.

 

[MickeyRat]

I completely understand the desire not to knuckle under to a bully. I was one of the many that took my time turning into a man. On top of that, my step-father was a bully when he drank and he drank every night. So, I've had my share of that treatment. BTW becoming more manly physically, remedied the problem on both fronts. I know that they do it because of their own insecurity and the justice of their position is not what drives their behavior. On any other subject, I would probably agree with these responses.

That said, smokers thought they had the right too. The owners of establishments sanctioned what they were doing too. We've seen how that worked out. Standing our ground isn't going to help us right now.

The thing is you gave the bully what he wanted. The better way to handle a bully is to disarm him. Not only that, anyone that saw the altercation probably wasn't cheering you on. Many of them haven't formed opinions about vaping and you probably didn't help. If when he objected, you'd said, "I actually have been given permission but, I have no wish to be rude. So, I'll stop if you object but, would you mind telling me why it bothers you?", you very likely would have gotten a fairly ridiculous response but, maybe not. It's possible that you would have had an educational opportunity. Responding this way makes it clear that you are still the one that chooses whether you vape or not but, you are willing to be gracious and choose not to vape, if he objects. A bully really doesn't want that message; they want the choice to be theirs not yours but, you leave them no where to go. If he continued to object, you should have wished him well and either stopped or left. If you had done this, you would have left him dissatisfied and any onlookers would have known him for the creep he was. He might even think twice about doing it again.

 

[newq]

I completely understand the desire not to knuckle under to a bully. I was one of the many that took my time turning into a man. On top of that, my step-father was a bully when he drank and he drank every night. So, I've had my share of that treatment. BTW becoming more manly physically, remedied the problem on both fronts. I know that they do it because of their own insecurity and the justice of their position is not what drives their behavior. On any other subject, I would probably agree with these responses.

That said, smokers thought they had the right too. The owners of establishments sanctioned what they were doing too. We've seen how that worked out. Standing our ground isn't going to help us right now.

The thing is you gave the bully what he wanted. The better way to handle a bully is to disarm him. Not only that, anyone that saw the altercation probably wasn't cheering you on. Many of them haven't formed opinions about vaping and you probably didn't help. If when he objected, you'd said, "I actually have been given permission but, I have no wish to be rude. So, I'll stop if you object but, would you mind telling me why it bothers you?", you very likely would have gotten a fairly ridiculous response but, maybe not. It's possible that you would have had an educational opportunity. Responding this way makes it clear that you are still the one that chooses whether you vape or not but, you are willing to be gracious and choose not to vape, if he objects. A bully really doesn't want that message; they want the choice to be theirs not yours but, you leave them no where to go. If he continued to object, you should have wished him well and either stopped or left. If you had done this, you would have left him dissatisfied and any onlookers would have known him for the creep he was. He might even think twice about doing it again.

You've either got to be older and wiser or just more intellignet and full of restraint. Although admittedly I am the guy you find pounding square pegs into round holes with bigger hammers. I guess in my life I have found where finess and ease doesnt work brute force will usually work even if there are unintended consequences. I admire men with the brilliance to combat in this fashion but all to often find my self frustrated and tired of pursuing ignorant .......s who just seriously need to have one of lifes difficult lessons thrust upon him. Some lessons in life are easy to learn others can be a real ...... At times it is easy to force than to reason.

Btw on a side note my sig lies. That should read, have not saved but should have if I could stop buying ecig toys....

 

[MickeyRat]

You've either got to be older and wiser or just more intellignet and full of restraint. Although admittedly I am the guy you find pounding square pegs into round holes with bigger hammers. I guess in my life I have found where finess and ease doesnt work brute force will usually work even if there are unintended consequences. I admire men with the brilliance to combat in this fashion but all to often find my self frustrated and tired of pursuing ignorant .......s who just seriously need to have one of lifes difficult lessons thrust upon him. Some lessons in life are easy to learn others can be a real ...... At times it is easy to force than to reason.

Btw on a side note my sig lies. That should read, have not saved but should have if I could stop buying ecig toys....

Hard to say whether I'm older or wiser. It's not really my nature either but, the school of hard knocks drove that particular message home more forcefully than most in my case.

The thing you have to understand is that adult bullies are probably the most pitiful people in the world. They have so little control over their life, they feel they need to exert control over others. The control has nothing to do with what they are telling you to do. The control is making you angry and making you pay attention. These pitiful people aren't worthy of your anger. Once you understand that in your heart, they really can't get to you. The fact is, that the response I recommend is a far more aggressive response to a bully than a physical blow would be.

 

[sailorman]

It's always best to try and educate these guys and try to win them over. Granted, with some you might as well be talking to a rock, but it's best to try to avoid a confrontation if possible. Unfortunately, situations like this are going to work against us. If this keeps happening in that place, eventually the owner is going to ban it. I know it's wrong, he needs to be educated and all that, but all the owner wants is to keep the peace and if something is causing a problem, he's going to ban it. Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. He will take the easy way out so he doesn't have to deal with it.

Of course it's best to avoid confrontation. But when someone walks across the room and sits at your table, that is the very definition of confrontation. The only way to have avoided it would have been to get up and immediately run away. I'm sure you're not advocating that? The guy was looking for a confrontation, not a discussion.

The OP was wrong only in that he tolerated a stranger making himself comfortable, uninvited, at his table. That alone would have caused some trouble where I'm from. Forget about the vaping or anything else. You don't just go sit at someone's table, regardless of who they are or what they're doing.

Fortunately, there's no logical reason to expect this will keep happening in that place. Vaping doesn't, and can't be expected by a reasonable person to, evoke that kind of behavior among normal people. If it did, it would already be banned everywhere. I don't care where you are, in what city etc, behavior like that is pretty rare. If the owner wishes to become a mecca for bullies and rowdies, then he can act as if the victims of thuggery are causing the problem and only allow thugs through the door. The way to keep the peace is to kick out the people causing the disruption. That is not the person sitting there minding their business. It's the person who gets up to go out of their way to initiate a confrontation.

This incident really had nothing to do with vaping, or whether it's right or wrong, permitted or not. If the OP had been smoking crack at his table, the bully would still have had no right to do what he did. He's not the security guard or the owner or an employee. If a fight had ensued, the bully would have been the one to be arrested, regardless of the owner's policy on vaping. That's irrelevant. He would have been arrested because he was the one who initiated a conflict. Surely the owner is not so stupid that he can't separate the two issues. Otherwise, what's next? Will he ban people with long hair because once every couple years an out of control redneck walks in and starts a fight with a hippie?

I find it interesting that under no other circumstances would someone be expected, even urged, to acquiesce to the demands of someone who, legally, could very well have been guilty of simple battery. (Battery requires no physical contact.) But when someone is vaping, then they are expected to take one on the chin in order to keep the peace so that proprietors don't act in an irrational and insane way. It is inferred that the vaper contributed to the incident by his legal and permitted behavior, even though the entire thing was initiated by a thug.

Would any of you advocate that a woman not wear a sexy dress in a club because she could be assaulted and the club owner might get tired of it and demand all women wear overalls? That's just about the same thing you're doing in this case.

 

[MickeyRat]

I find it interesting that under no other circumstances would someone be expected, even urged, to acquiesce to the demands of someone who, legally, could very well have been guilty of simple battery. (Battery requires no physical contact.) But when someone is vaping, then they are expected to take one on the chin in order to keep the peace so that proprietors don't act in an irrational and insane way. It is inferred that the vaper contributed to the incident by his legal and permitted behavior, even though the entire thing was initiated by a thug.

This argument would hold water, if business owners were still allowed to exercise their own judgement with regards to smoking in their establishments. However, that is not the case. In fact, around here those laws were passed over the objections of business owners. So, yes, when a rational business owner has an irrational customer, we do need to take it on the chin. You know as well as I do, they are rare. If you can't do it for yourself, do it for the business.

I might change my stance if the opinion of most people with regard to vaping was established but, it's not.

As for your question about what's next, now that it has been established that business owners are not free to determine what lawful behavior they can allow on their own property, all bets are off. There literally is no limit and we need to recognize that.

 

[sailorman]

This argument would hold water, if business owners were still allowed to exercise their own judgement with regards to smoking in their establishments. However, that is not the case. In fact, around here those laws were passed over the objections of business owners. So, yes, when a rational business owner has an irrational customer, we do need to take it on the chin. You know as well as I do, they are rare. If you can't do it for yourself, do it for the business.

I might change my stance if the opinion of most people with regard to vaping was established but, it's not.

As for your question about what's next, now that it has been established that business owners are not free to determine what lawful behavior they can allow on their own property, all bets are off. There literally is no limit and we need to recognize that.

Come come now, Rat. Business owners are allowed to exercise their own judgement with regards to LEGAL behavior in their establishments. Where vaping is legal, they've got the right to ban it or allow it as they see fit. The fact that they aren't allowed to exercise their judgement regarding smoking is irrelevant. Vaping isn't smoking.

That doesn't mean that they have to allow thuggery in their establishment. It also doesn't follow that any thuggery will be, or should be, attributed to the vaper just because vaping isn't universally accepted. I remember when mixed race couples weren't universally accepted. Fights broke out over it all the time, but it didn't cause a ban on mixed race dating and businesses didn't start prohibiting mixed race couples from entering their stores.

It has NOT been established that business owners are not free to determine what lawful behavior they can allow. They're free to allow, or not allow, anything that it's lawful to do in a public business. Smoking is not lawful behavior in a restaurant, vaping is. Sex is lawful, but not in a restaurant. A lot of lawful things are not lawful when done in a public business. All that aside, it doesn't matter. Even if the OP was smoking (edit), what the bully did was not acceptable and could even be construed as illegal. If what you are contending is true, then all the anti-vapers have to do is start a campaign to start a ruckus every time they see a vaper and vaping will be forbidden by businesses. If that's the case, we've lost this fight already and may as well retreat into our closets.

We don't need to take it on the chin in the face of an irrational customer. Neither does the proprietor. The whole shop wasn't filled with irrational customers who will blame the vaper/vaping for the altercation. This incident wasn't a reflection on vaping. It was a reflection on a thug. The proprietor or employee knows it and they know their customers better than we do and he didn't kick the OP out or tell him to stop.