Canton, MA considering ordinance to ban e-cigarette, dissolvable tobacco, snus sales

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Berylanna

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I was told by a member of law enforcement in that county, if I was sitting on my porch drinking my wine and causing no trouble, no law enforcement officer would approach me. However if they were called to an address for other reasons or you were out and about, the law would be enforced. Sure enough, I had the bottle sitting in plain view while drinking a glass on my deck and an officer drove by and waved to me as he continued on.

EWB (Existing While Black) crimes include all non-enforced crimes. Up to the officer's discretion. I've even had a cop tell me that about 5% of cops do this and the rest cannot complain if they don't want to end up without anybody covering their back when it's life-or-death.

And it's easy to forget that the 5% would end up being ~80% of the actual contact that 'profile targets' have with cops, since the good ones don't bother people, they are underrepresented in the contact rate. You can drive by a good cop 1000 times and not get busted if you're not doing something BOTH wrong AND illegal. A bad one will get you at least a few times a year.

In fact they'd probably be 99% of contacts except that people in troubled neighborhoods probably run into regular ones that come when called, a lot more than I ever have.

(I talk to cops about once every 3-4 years, for about 30 seconds.)

DO NOT tolerate laws-not-meant-to-be-enforced. It's a method of drastically separating one group's experience from another group's -- it creates two planets with different realities.
 

Racehorse

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Another note, this law is specifically on sales. I assume that means products purchased elsewhere can still but used.

I've lived in 2 dry counties, one only prohibited sales of alcohol and the other included use.

It is not illegal to possess alcoholic beverages in the US, anywhere that I know of. Homebrewing beer is legal in all 50 states in 2013.

(and I"m sure people aren't brewing beer just to water their gardens with or cook bratwurst.)

So I really wish when talking about ecig bans, the people posting would be very SPECIFIC as to what exactly is being banned. Baning sales and production, that is very very different than "ownership". Most vapers get their stuff online right now and do not purchase from brick and mortar stores.

As for "use", I live in a "dry county". too. I'm pretty sure you'd have a nice lawsuit on your hands if they banned the use of alcohol, since alcohol is NOT classified as an illegal substance anywhere in the United States.

Only the sale, production, brewing and serving of it commercially in dry counties is. And that appears not to cover beer since home brewing is legal everywhere.

Most people just go over to the next country to buy liquor if they want some.
 
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szot

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It could be that Canton ppl got what they wanted? :)

It could be that they didn't just "lay down," but rather agreed with the people they voted into office to make these decisions for them. Nature of a republic.

Regarding the Eastern / Western Mass being a different breed...

I think the solution to this is to promote inter-breeding. I will put on some of my finest cologne, break out the polyester disco suit, and head west this week-end to do my part. Cheers.




Obviously U don't know Western mass...all farms and mountains, along with great universities and colleges...we don't do nightclubs and disco duck stuff here...and we support Boston sports teams at Fenway, Foxboro, and The Fleet center, more than Boston ppl.....obviously Canton and the surrounding area don't care about other ppl who vape..well we do here in Western mass and went to bat for them....enuff said...peace bro..
 
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Penn

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It is not illegal to possess alcoholic beverages in the US, anywhere that I know of. Homebrewing beer is legal in all 50 states in 2013.

Really? It may be legal to homebrew in all 50 states, but not in every county.

I see you are in Arkansas. The closest to you I think would be Mississippi, where some counties, if I remember correct, ban possession by way of laws against transporting alcohol through the county.

Now you may be right that a person in one of the counties with possession laws may have the grounds for a lawsuit (which may also be why they don't enforce the law) but that doesn't change the fact the laws are on the books.

EWB (Existing While Black) crimes include all non-enforced crimes. Up to the officer's discretion. I've even had a cop tell me that about 5% of cops do this and the rest cannot complain if they don't want to end up without anybody covering their back when it's life-or-death.

And it's easy to forget that the 5% would end up being ~80% of the actual contact that 'profile targets' have with cops, since the good ones don't bother people, they are underrepresented in the contact rate. You can drive by a good cop 1000 times and not get busted if you're not doing something BOTH wrong AND illegal. A bad one will get you at least a few times a year.

In fact they'd probably be 99% of contacts except that people in troubled neighborhoods probably run into regular ones that come when called, a lot more than I ever have.

(I talk to cops about once every 3-4 years, for about 30 seconds.)

DO NOT tolerate laws-not-meant-to-be-enforced. It's a method of drastically separating one group's experience from another group's -- it creates two planets with different realities.

I'm against laws not meant to be enforced but they do exist for multiple reasons.

In the case of the dry counties I've lived in the laws go back to prohibition, when they were enforced. When those laws are up for sunset they continue to be passed, not because people want alcohol to be banned but they know their county might grow and changed if they do repeal the laws, which they do not want. I'm not saying that is logical but it does exist.

More relevant to possibilities in the Canton situation, I have heard of laws being passed because the geniuses voting on them didn't read a larger piece of legislation thoroughly and something unintended squeaked through. Instead of repealing the full law or amending they just choose to not enforce it. Usually these get addressed at a later time.
 

BillyRayBob

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Obviously U don't know Western mass...all farms and mountains, along with great universities and colleges...we don't do nightclubs and disco duck stuff here...

I was kidding :). I used to live in Sunderland. Loved it.

I spent a fair amount of time living in a dry town as well. I don't believe it would have been anyone's right to come to that town, from elsewhere, and start demanding the town no longer be dry. Every town is going to approach this in a way that is right for their town.

Heck, if I had my way, I'd live in a dry town with horses the only mode of transportation and google fiber for everyone. Haven't found such a place.

It's great that people write in to inform the decision makers so they can make informed decisions that work for them.

Don't know what to tell ya about the budgeting woes. I'd be interested in comparing how New York handles things. I'm thinking they're not pulling money out of, say, Rochester or Chauttauqua just so they can fix a manhole in NYC.
 

Capt.shay

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I was kidding :). I used to live in Sunderland. Loved it..

Probably one of those hooligans in Cliff Side.:facepalm:

I'm not going to get in to the whole West-East thing. Let me just say that except for a Sox game or an occasional concert, I haven't found much reason to go on the other side of the Quabin in years.:2cool:


Sounds like the council heard the voice of the vape community even if there wasn't a strong personal presence. I think the news footage showing him with the pile of mail he had received from we vapers was a pretty telling sign.

We managed to quell this one but we need to have a better physical presence in the future.
 

szot

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Sunderland....home of Bill Cosby...swimming at Puffers pond...is a gorgeous area...Quabbin too is just amazing....but I do like to hit the Cape, 4th cliff, and the Gloucester area on a 2 day bike ride...but once I hit 95, its a new ball game and a completely diff world...Mass is divided in 2 and our ways are so diff...but all us who vape need to stick together on that issue, and apparently the very large Boston metro area didn't see it as an important issue...this proposed ecig sales ban could have easily been the first domino to fall for every city in the state, if it wasn't for the non locals who don't live near Canton or the Boston area..
 

Hulamoon

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I know a lot of folk provided written testimony to the Board in Canton prior to the hearings. What does surprise me is that in spite of the far reaching and precedent setting consequences the Canton legislation could have had, that it's fizzled out to all intents and purposes. I had to hunt the thread to see the conclusions.

I got the impression that thanks to Bill, CASAA and those who drove 90 minutes there and back (God bless you all), that the e-cigarette won this round by having someone on the Board ready to listen and believe that e-cigarettes are a definite reduction of harm and significantly healthier alternative to smoking cigarettes. Am I missing something?

As to the 18-21 age range, I personally feel if you can sign up and die for your country at 18, go to work and pay taxes etc, be married, have children, then you should be considered an adult in all other respects. But that's just me.
 

szot

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hmmmm..I just read where 42 cities in Mass have already banned using Ecigs in public places....so I guess the sales in Canton is actually a mute point and def NOT a starting point against Ecigs already in this state...how in the heck can ppl sit by and allow this to happen in 42 cities already...this issue is as bad as the gun laws and very controversial...cold day in hell somebody takes away my freedoms that I've earned , without a fight...watch out looks like Big Brother is really here and kicking our doors in as we sit idley by..I was a GI (military) for 30 years and cannot understand how ppl easily give up their freedoms after many gave much to preserve them..

18 and over....if ya can vote for the president and go to war for your country, then least give them the respect, freedoms and courtesies given to all other adults..
 

DC2

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hmmmm..I just read where 42 cities in Mass have already banned using Ecigs in public places...
If that's true I'd be shocked.
Not that I am saying it isn't true, but if it is I'd be shocked.

The reason I say that is because every ban attempt that we are made aware of comes through here.
And I am positive I haven't seen more than maybe a couple of bans for cities in Massachusetts come down the pike.

So if there really are that many bans in cities in Massachusetts then...
--It makes me wonder why we aren't hearing about them
--It makes me wonder how many others around the country we aren't hearing about
 

szot

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Another release by the Boston Herald today....vote NO on poll question #4

State bill would tamp down e-cigs | Boston Herald

Puffing electronic cigarettes would be illegal in most public places across the Bay State — including restaurants and bars — under a Beacon Hill bill rolled out yesterday, but critics argued there’s no evidence that second-hand vapor causes health problems and predicted the increasingly popular devices could be pols’ next tax target.

State Rep. Jeffrey Sanchez (D-Jamaica Plain), the chairman of the Joint Committee on Public Health, said the main goal of his bill is to prohibit the sale of e-cigarettes — battery-powered devices that look like cigarettes, contain nicotine and produce water vapor — to minors under age 18.

“Not very many people know about it, but kids are finding out really quickly,” said Sanchez.

“And that’s what this bill is about. How do we keep electronic cigarettes out of the hands of kids?”

But the bill goes further by banning the distribution of free samples of e-cigarettes and prohibiting using them anyplace it’s illegal to smoke traditional cigarettes, including bars, restaurants and workplaces.

“There’s very little research on these products,” said Margaret Reid of the Boston Public Health Commission, which passed a citywide ban in 2011. “They’re totally unregulated.”

Some 42 Bay State communities have banned using e-cigarettes in public places, according to the state’s Department of Public Health.

But Michael Siegel, a Boston University public health professor who has testified in favor of smoking bans in public places, said similar prohibitions on e-cigarettes are premature.

“Right now, we simply don’t have scientific evidence showing second-hand exposure to vapor in electronic cigarettes is harmful,” said Siegel.

“In fact, there’s quite a bit of scientific evidence that shows it’s unlikely that it causes any substantial health effects for bystanders.”

Siegel compared it to banning grills in restaurants just because cooking fumes contain carcinogens.

“We don’t want to indiscriminately start banning everything out of pure speculation,” said Siegel. “We really want to make sure public health continues to be science-based.”

E-cigarette sales nationwide topped $500 million last year and are expected to reach $1 billion this year. State Rep. Keiko Orrall (R-Lakeville) predicted it’s only a matter of time before Bay State pols take a cut of the revenues.

“The tax issue isn’t a concern right now,” she said, “but definitely it’ll be something that’s looked at in the future.”
Chris Cassidy / Boston Herald


The strange part of this is that I never heard of Boston nor any 42 cities in Mass banning Ecigs use ever...until this article... I thought Canton Mass was trying to become the first in Mass or even the US...

This was posted today by the Boston Herald and is discussed in the thread "Massachusetts ban" where this quote came from...
 
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