Battery Info & Safety Sticky

[Sense Field]

Hi guys!

I just got off of skype with someone talking about this.

So here is what I have learned...the holes will prevent the pressure during the thermal runway. When a battery swells, it is possible for the battery to block the holes, though it's also possible it won't. This depends on the placement of the holes.

The term "Hotspring" is wrong...it was made up when someone created a nonconducting spring.

What we actually thought we were talking about was a collapsable spring. Again, this will not stop the thermal runway, which is the events leading up to an explosion. *It can prevent the events that lead to the thermal runway (venting), which is higher then normal temperature of the battery.* (*This was added by another person I spoke with). So if a collapsable spring does collapse, then you did not have venting because venting is the thermal runway which leads to an explosion and the thermal runway can not be stopped.

Most important of all, I am wrong, the P+ does not have a "hotspring" or a collapsable spring. When I experienced the spring deforming, something else must have been going on.

I apologize for providing some information that was incorrect, though, I have been assured that the rest of the video is spot on and that the mod as it was, is extremely dangerous according to the person I was talking with.

So all said and done, we are safer with vent holes and if they can figure out a way to set up the bottom switch so that when tightened down it's not stuck on "always on" mode, we would be even better off.

 

[r77r7r]

Depends on your point of view...

The vent issue has enough people concerned that they are now adding additional vents... So this appears to be a non-issue soon.

The other two issues that were brought up... are a different type of concern I guess would be the best way to say it. The additional battery protection ( beyond using a protected battery AND not stacking batteries ) in this type of mod is typically addressed by a fuse add-on or perhaps a Kick. An advanced user already knows this and what LD and sense have been kicking around ( no pun intended ) is for when a non-advanced user buys one not knowing the proper safety procedures etc.

The additional issue of being able to screw down the mod far enough to also engage the switch... again this should be a common sense issue and USUALLY anyone should realize they shouldn't do it... the key word is USUALLY here, and well, the fact that common sense today isn't so common anymore also.

So the other two issues brought up beyond the vents... are not big issues per se but could be addressed with some design changes

In my opinion... these are advanced all mechanical PV's made for advanced users and as such the user should either already know how to properly and safely use one or be responsible enough to learn. The purpose of an all mechanical mod is so there is a lower chance of a part failing... adding additional parts increases the chance of a parts failure.

Certainly SF is an advanced user and also has common sense- and yet it happened to him. I don't have anything against Gotvapes or Smoktech- I'm not friends with LD or SF, My interest in this is solely that I'd like to never see anyone harmed.

I've been informed since my previous post that GV and ST are handling this, so I'm done.

 

[rdsok]

From what I have gathered about "thermal runaway" ... most of the time this is started from a short which then leads to excessive voltage/current internally in the battery breaking down the material they are made up from... Stacking batteries leads to this more often because there is double the voltage so the condition happens much quicker.

A collapsible ( hot spring as we were referring to it ) helps because the connection is supposed to be broken before the point that the battery would start to fail into a runaway situation... Protected cell lithium's also have a feature that would limit this happening as does the add-on fuse we spoke of earlier. All of these types of protection help limit the chances of a runaway situation but don't eliminate them completely...

Battery swelling causing a blockage... if you didn't see the post by Dan... Smok Tech is adding vent holes in the top and bottom tubes. So they considered this when designing where the vents were located.

 

[Sense Field]

From what I have gathered about "thermal runaway" ... most of the time this is started from a short which then leads to excessive voltage/current internally in the battery breaking down the material they are made up from... Stacking batteries leads to this more often because there is double the voltage so the condition happens much quicker.

A collapsible ( hot spring as we were referring to it ) helps because the connection is supposed to be broken before the point that the battery would start to fail into a runaway situation... Protected cell lithium's also have a feature that would limit this happening as does the add-on fuse we spoke of earlier. All of these types of protection help limit the chances of a runaway situation but don't eliminate them completely...

Battery swelling causing a blockage... if you didn't see the post by Dan... Smok Tech is adding vent holes in the top and bottom tubes. So they considered this when designing where the vents were located.

You are 100% correct...I just had someone else inform me that what most of us experience when a spring collapses is a short that could lead to the thermal runway and then an explosion.

I have seen the vent holes.

It looks like they are in good spots. The bottom one will never be covered by a battery expanding because it's by the spring on the button. The top one is probably a bit low in 18650 mode, but probably fine in other modes.

 

[LordDavon]

I know a lot of people think that "common sense" is common, but as we all know, it isn't always the case. For instance, when I drank, there were times I have no idea why I was waking up next to... well... let's just say that she wouldn't have been my first choice. Funny, but true. And, something that we all need to remember. There are times that common sense escapes us all.

Anyway, one thing I have learned from this whole thing, is that many of the mods/APVs that we all use, and consider safe... aren't. The hotspring, which I have just learned is called a collapsable spring , isn't common. Many mechanical mods -- ones we all use daily -- aren't much safer than the Telescope was before the holes. It is an unfortunate truth, and one that we all need to understand.

If nothing else, this has renewed awareness of an issue that, I think, was starting to be forgotten. And, I have to commend GotVapes for going the extra mile, and giving a $25 credit for the return of the existing tubes. I know they say it is for the trouble, but it is also a great incentive in making sure that the non-vented tubes are no longer "in the wild".

 

[dannoman]

On rdsok's point (sorry but too lazy right now to multi-quote, bold etc) about overtightening, is true. If threading can slip on the Telescope it can probably do so on other telescoping PV's. I told SMOKtech about this concern so they can be aware of it. I am not sure over-tightening is a result of the quality of the threading or not, or if its simply a matter of, 'don't overtighten' - use common sense caution. The extra spacer mentioned in here wouldn't be a bad idea in this case. (and again I 'overtightened' at one point and found I had the flat top battery in backwards).

SMOK is send us complete kits as they are also adding a hole in the top tube - I urge everyone to return the complete unit as their retrofit now encompasses the complete unit.

In the past few days I have come to the conclusion that a fuse is indeed one of the better and most effective 'peace-of-mind' solutions. We have the Vape Safe (2c For Safety) winging its way to us, should be here in a couple of days. I have also been talking to SMOKtech about the possibility of adding built-in fuses to future products, they are looking into it actively. On a side note Vape Safe is coming out with Vape Safe II (which is resettable instead of having to replace the entire fuse if something happens)....it will be roughly double the price of the Vape Safe.

 

[rdsok]

Just thinking out loud here and not really expressing an opinion per se... in short, some discussion on pro's and con's may be warrented

I'm not sure if a built in fuse would be the way to go or not.. but I do like the idea of a fuse of some type. I actually like it better than a collapsable spring since I feel they can be built to a closer tolerance ( of when they "blow" ). Having a built in does have the advantage that it's there and a user wouldn't be able to operate without it... but it also requires a special made part just for this one unit which increases costs since they can't be sold for other mod's to help spread out the initial r&d as well as production line costs. Built in or not... they do need to be replaceable and/or resetable.

 

[medman1234]

Can I use the 2 cent 4 saefety on the pos+ end of the battery?
Answered,Poloarity doesn't matter.

 

[retird]

Must say that the continued discussion is beneficial....and GV's input to Smoktech is commendable....to me it is not a "piece of mind issue" but a "safety issue"....

I am reminded of the content included in one of the pending law suits where it is alledged that the manufacturer/supplier did not provide an instruction manual with the device (note- the supplier/manufacturer is now providing a user manual)....it is one thing to post here about the "overtightening", or the 'don't use stacked batteries", yet another to have a manual stating to all customers the proper use (or miss-use of the device)....

just "food for thought" for you guys.....have a great day.....

 

[Drew_]

It's really great to see GV responding to the communities safety concerns. I applaud it, and it looks like a lot of progress is being made to insure this mod is safe to vape.

 

[LordDavon]

Must say that the continued discussion is beneficial....and GV's input to Smoktech is commendable....to me it is not a "piece of mind issue" but a "safety issue"....

I am reminded of the content included in one of the pending law suits where it is alledged that the manufacturer/supplier did not provide an instruction manual with the device (note- the supplier/manufacturer is now providing a user manual)....it is one thing to post here about the "overtightening", or the 'don't use stacked batteries", yet another to have a manual stating to all customers the proper use (or miss-use of the device)....

just "food for thought" for you guys.....have a great day.....

I think wording is important also. Using, "tighten only until snug. After tightening, check activation button to make sure there is a half inch of motion before activation. If there isn't, unscrew a full rotation, and test again." and, "The use of two or more batteries in this unit is ill advised, and could cause injury, or even fatality." I know they aren't the greatest wordings, but enough to give an idea of my point. Using words that are vague like, "Don't over tighten", and "don't use stacked batteries" -- which I often use -- can lead someone to say that they didn't know what was considered over tightening, or what stacked batteries mean.

 

[CoyoteRed]

I think wording is important also. Using, "tighten only until snug. After tightening, check activation button to make sure there is a half inch of motion before activation. If there isn't, unscrew a full rotation, and test again." and, "The use of two or more batteries in this unit is ill advised, and could cause injury, or even fatality." I know they aren't the greatest wordings, but enough to give an idea of my point. Using words that are vague like, "Don't over tighten", and "don't use stacked batteries" -- which I often use -- can lead someone to say that they didn't know what was considered over tightening, or what stacked batteries mean.

Man I cant wait to see the Chinese translation of that...LOL;

 

[retird]

In looking back on this thread, the Telescope has been on a journey toward becoming a safer mod. This journey, to me, can be shown by the selected posts below. Those of us who have read this thread are aware of the recall. Surely an e-mail to ALL customers who purchased a Telescope has been sent informing them of the recall, as there may be many customers who have not seen this thread, nor the recall information...In my opinion, this was a journey worth taking..

there is safety features on this and not sure who said otherwise. the spring is a saftey feature

there is no replacement guys so that wont be happening and the mod is just fine if this bothers you so much dont use it, others are and are happy.

Because of the voiced safety concerns, whether we differ or not to what level these should be raised, I certainly respect the rationale of anyone bringing them up - it has gotten to the point of a bit of hysteria. On another venue, very distasteful and malevolent statements and ill will were expressed that quite frankly alarmed me that someone may stage something or do something to drive home a point.

So at this point I am in contact with SMOKtech (it is their weekend so I may be waiting all weekend) to see what their answer is to the concerns. In the meantime I have zeroed out the inventory. Any Telescope orders placed today will not be fulfilled and anyone who has purchased a Telescope we would like you to return and we will provide you a credit for any other product in our store equal to the amount you paid for your mod plus an additional $25.00 for the inconvenience. If you would rather have a credit card refund we will do that also and you will still be issued the store credit of $25.00 for any inconvenince and hassle in sending the item back, plus whatever shipping charges you may have incurred (I'd ask you to please do not send your unit back express mail : )

I was assured, as well as Chris, the fully threaded tube provides more than enough venting and that the firing pin where it enters the tube also provides space to vent as heat generated in a breakdown of a battery would liquify any glue that is at the base and provide a large vent hole. I was also under the impression the catch was a hard plastic but this is not what SMOKtech told me, I came to that conclusion from eyeballing it, but I was wrong.

I do not believe a balloon test entirely is an adequate simulation of what kind of venting would accur, room temperature versus the force of a thermal breakdown. But that is a moot point at this stage. Enough concern has been raised. This is probably a good thing, many people are becoming much more educated on battery safety whether some of us feel it may have been overblown a bit much.

For those of you who have purchased this item please return to:

GotVapes - Daniel
10715 Buckeye Furnace
Sugar Land, TX 77498

Once received I will issue you a store credit or credit card refund (your choice). You will also be given a $25.00 store credit for your inconvenice and to that will be added your cost of shipping the unit back.

Unless SMOKtech provides us redress in either modifying the tubes or sending us tubes that aleviate any saftey concerns we will probably have to count this as a loss and that is plenty ok. Chris and I DO care ALOT about everyone and we want you completely comfortable about making purchases at GotVapes.com.

I will keep everyone informed as to SMOKtech's response as soon as I find out.

Thanks much to everyone and to the wonderful ECF community and it is meant from my heart and I am sure Chris also.

Ok good news folks...SMOKtech is going to mill new vented bottom tubes for the mod and they will be sent to us right away, possibly by the middle of the week. Pease return your mod's bottom tube and I will exchange it out for you. We will still offer the 25.00 store credit with shipping for an inconvenience.

SO - No longer return the whole kit, just send back the bottom tube if you have already purchased one of these and it will be replaced and I will then issue the store credit plus shipping.

This is exactly what I was discussing with LD today...A hot spring may not really apply here as a safety measure. The spring in the Telescope does not complete the circuit and thus fire the mod, its the firing pin. The spring inside only serves as a support for the batteries with the plastic cap over them as the rest. This is why SMOKtech told us that if someone inserts the battery in with wrong polarity it really won't do any damage (because of this).

As far as the positioning of the vent holes, I wasn't told EXACTLY, only that it would be in the tube, not the bottom cap. I imagine this is because they ARE using a certain amount of glue for the spring and putting venting holes in the bottom cap would have the glue as an obstruction for venting...

...one other thing...I do encourage everyone to send back the bottom tube (not the cap) but if you decide not to, the unit is made of aluminum and should be easier to drill a hole...

On rdsok's point (sorry but too lazy right now to multi-quote, bold etc) about overtightening, is true. If threading can slip on the Telescope it can probably do so on other telescoping PV's. I told SMOKtech about this concern so they can be aware of it. I am not sure over-tightening is a result of the quality of the threading or not, or if its simply a matter of, 'don't overtighten' - use common sense caution. The extra spacer mentioned in here wouldn't be a bad idea in this case. (and again I 'overtightened' at one point and found I had the flat top battery in backwards).

SMOK is send us complete kits as they are also adding a hole in the top tube - I urge everyone to return the complete unit as their retrofit now encompasses the complete unit.

In the past few days I have come to the conclusion that a fuse is indeed one of the better and most effective 'peace-of-mind' solutions. We have the Vape Safe (2c For Safety) winging its way to us, should be here in a couple of days. I have also been talking to SMOKtech about the possibility of adding built-in fuses to future products, they are looking into it actively. On a side note Vape Safe is coming out with Vape Safe II (which is resettable instead of having to replace the entire fuse if something happens)....it will be roughly double the price of the Vape Safe.

 

[Briar]

It's been a bit since anyone posted here, but, in retrospect, I want to put in another couple of pennies, based on what was said.

I believe the most important thing for safety, beyond a good quality product, is, indeed, a good manual. With the key points listed on the product page.

Ultimately, everything is dangerous. Sure, manufacturers of all sorts of things should do everything they reasonably can to make their products as safe as possible. But, "reasonably" is a relative concept. People who make things for sale, do so with the purpose of gaining profit. How much profit is "reasonable"? Because that's what it boils down to...

And even the most stringent safety precautions can be bypassed by someone sufficiently inventive, or unpredictably stupid. And, unfortunately, stupidity is notoriously unpredictable. So, unless we require anyone who sells anything only sell their stuff to people who pass an IQ test (!!!), safety is always iffy, given the way people are.

But if there is a simple, accessible manual that says in plain words: "Don't do this, or you might die.", the responsibility is now in the consumer's hands. As long as we have the information, we can make informed decisions for ourselves.

The other side of this is that I strongly believe that the manufacturers should be called upon to provide their safety considerations in design and manufacture, their testing process, and their testing results - on their web sites, easily available for anyone to read if they wish.

If we, as a community, actively campaign for those two simple things, the safety issue will become much less of an issue and a source of discord.

I, for one, am quite concerned about safety on one hand, but I also don't want the market to end up in a place where the only PVs available are the most expensive ones due to trying to build only idiot-proof tanks - especially since there is no such thing as idiot-proof. Balance in all things, I say. I want the providers of goods to take all reasonable precautions within the intended price range, and I want it to be my choice how much safety I am comfortable with, when all is said and done.

So that's my bit on safety...

 

[dannoman]

I completely agree. Every PV needs much better manuals. Even the USA mods often do not come with one...even if as you said, it mainly contains saftey info.

It's been a bit since anyone posted here, but, in retrospect, I want to put in another couple of pennies, based on what was said.

I believe the most important thing for safety, beyond a good quality product, is, indeed, a good manual. With the key points listed on the product page.

Ultimately, everything is dangerous. Sure, manufacturers of all sorts of things should do everything they reasonably can to make their products as safe as possible. But, "reasonably" is a relative concept. People who make things for sale, do so with the purpose of gaining profit. How much profit is "reasonable"? Because that's what it boils down to...

And even the most stringent safety precautions can be bypassed by someone sufficiently inventive, or unpredictably stupid. And, unfortunately, stupidity is notoriously unpredictable. So, unless we require anyone who sells anything only sell their stuff to people who pass an IQ test (!!!), safety is always iffy, given the way people are.

But if there is a simple, accessible manual that says in plain words: "Don't do this, or you might die.", the responsibility is now in the consumer's hands. As long as we have the information, we can make informed decisions for ourselves.

The other side of this is that I strongly believe that the manufacturers should be called upon to provide their safety considerations in design and manufacture, their testing process, and their testing results - on their web sites, easily available for anyone to read if they wish.

If we, as a community, actively campaign for those two simple things, the safety issue will become much less of an issue and a source of discord.

I, for one, am quite concerned about safety on one hand, but I also don't want the market to end up in a place where the only PVs available are the most expensive ones due to trying to build only idiot-proof tanks - especially since there is no such thing as idiot-proof. Balance in all things, I say. I want the providers of goods to take all reasonable precautions within the intended price range, and I want it to be my choice how much safety I am comfortable with, when all is said and done.

So that's my bit on safety...

 

[CoyoteRed]

I completely agree. Every PV needs much better manuals. Even the USA mods often do not come with one...even if as you said, it mainly contains saftey info.

Maybe you could put the keys points of safety on the back of your business cards that you send out with each order.It is something you do already you would just have to have new cards made up.
This way everyone who orders gets a safety checklist with anything they order and they cant say they did not get such information.
Just a thought.

 

[DancingHeretik]

I notice MadVapes has the Telescope with the new venting holes added. It's selling at about 10 per hour. It'll be gone by the end of the day.

My issue is about the safety of the vent holes. There are holes around the top and around the bottom. Are these holes just holes, with no layer of anything on the inside to keep moisture out?

There are so many holes! Lots of places for water or sweat to get in. I won't buy it unless I'm assured that there's a thin layer of plastic or something inside all those holes to keep moisture out. Just a really thin layer that would easily melt away in case of overheating, yet still keep moisture out in the meantime.

Since MadVapes already has the updated Telescope and GotVapes doesn't, I thought maybe you guys have already received them and had the same doubts that I have.

 

[Briar]

That strikes me as a bit ufair: GV is the reason they added the holes, and now someone else gets them first? Hm.

I notice MadVapes has the Telescope with the new venting holes added. It's selling at about 10 per hour. It'll be gone by the end of the day.

My issue is about the safety of the vent holes. There are holes around the top and around the bottom. Are these holes just holes, with no layer of anything on the inside to keep moisture out?

There are so many holes! Lots of places for water or sweat to get in. I won't buy it unless I'm assured that there's a thin layer of plastic or something inside all those holes to keep moisture out. Just a really thin layer that would easily melt away in case of overheating, yet still keep moisture out in the meantime.

Since MadVapes already has the updated Telescope and GotVapes doesn't, I thought maybe you guys have already received them and had the same doubts that I have.

 

[DancingHeretik]

Yup. They had well over 70 in stock when I got off work late last night. Now they only have 34 left. They took advantage of GotVapes spreading the word, then cashed in!

But, they look scarier to me now. I won't buy one until I learn more about their safety issues. And, I wanted one SO BAD.

 

[Briar]

Well, they shouldn't look scarier... Honest.

The holes look really good. They are good size, and in the right places. To serve their purpose they have to be where they are, and be fairly sizable to get the gas from a venting battery out asap. I really wouldn't worry about sweat, unless your hands sweat so much that the sweat literally runs down like rain. And, as any electrical appliance, you shouldn't get it wet (rain or anything else), unless it's specifically designed as moisture-resistant.

I think the manufacturer got the point, and they did it right. Kudos to them. I'm just not happy that GV didn't get first dibs.

If you are concerned about shorts from water getting in there accidentally, get the fuse - it's very cheap, and it will take care of the problem. I have it in mine, and I am perfectly content even without vents.

Yup. They had well over 70 in stock when I got off work late last night. Now they only have 34 left. They took advantage of GotVapes spreading the word, then cashed in!

But, they look scarier to me now. I won't buy one until I learn more about their safety issues. And, I wanted one SO BAD.