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Historic example or Parable?

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eHuman

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In the passage where Jesus teaches the following.
1. Is this a parable or a real story?
2. What is the indication that we can know one way or the other?
3. What prophesy is given in this scripture?

Luke 16:19-31
19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house —
28 for I have five brothers — in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
 

eHuman

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Sorry, I wanted to give as many who wanted to a try before I spilled it. :oops:

1. Is this a parable or a real story?
2. What is the indication that we can know one way or the other?
3. What prophesy is given in this scripture?


1. What? Real story.

2. Why? In this teaching Jesus uses real names, in His parables He did not.
a. Lazarus is a name that cannot be verified as there is no other reference that supports it. There is no evidence to conclude that this is the brother of Mary and Martha.
b. Abraham is named as well as a real place (and facts about it), both able to be collaborated else where in scripture.

3. Prophesy: Jesus was foretelling of His own death and resurrection, and that those who don't believe what came before won't believe what will come after.
In the final verse Abraham says to the rich man, "'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
 

LisaLisa

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Sorry, I wanted to give as many who wanted to a try before I spilled it. :oops:

1. Is this a parable or a real story?
2. What is the indication that we can know one way or the other?
3. What prophesy is given in this scripture?


1. What? Real story.

2. Why? In this teaching Jesus uses real names, in His parables He did not.
a. Lazarus is a name that cannot be verified as there is no other reference that supports it. There is no evidence to conclude that this is the brother of Mary and Martha.
b. Abraham is named as well as a real place (and facts about it), both able to be collaborated else where in scripture.

3. Prophesy: Jesus was foretelling of His own death and resurrection, and that those who don't believe what came before won't believe what will come after.
In the final verse Abraham says to the rich man, "'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

So you believe in the firey pit of hell then? I didn't used to, but I do now.
 

eHuman

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And what if that sacrifice is not accepted? I.E. Why is there Hell if Jesus' sacrifice retain's God's righteousness.

Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to cover all that there ever was, yes
But not all come is my point.

You are spot on that Jesus' sacrifice is whar allows God to remain righteous and not have to punish sin. But every one will be asked (perverbially), "What did you do with My Son?"
 

chimney55

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Related Q: Can sin go unpunished an God still remain righteous?

I think that I would have phrased it, "Can sin go unpunished and God remain just?"

God is both righteous AND just! Those are just part of the character of God. God can neither become unrighteous or unjust. That's the domain of man. Because God knew that man would not be capable of remaining righteous so He gave them the sacrificial system to "purify themselves" from their sins. In the OT, the sacrifices for the nation of Israel were considered "valid" for a year. With the death and resurrection of the lamb of God, the sacrifice was for all time. All that was needed was that each person realize that they were a sinner, and believe in the sacrifice had been made on their behalf. At that time, they (and now we) would be imparted with the righteousness of Christ. On the other hand, those that refuse to admit that they are sinners and in need of a savior, they would necessarily be punished for their sins. To show preferential treatment to someone is NOT the hallmark of a just judge. "The wages of sin is death..." Their biggest sin of course is to refuse the gift of God that has been given on their behalf.

P.S. Hell was created to be the ultimate eternal dwelling place of fallen angels. With man's fall, and refusal of God's sacrifice, people who don't take advantage of God's gift will be "dwell" with the others that have refused to recognize God's sovereignty.
 
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Saintscruiser

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Yes! When the children of God sin, then ask for forgiveness, He gives it freely. Now there are always consequences to sin that happens, but as for God punishing after giving forgiveness? No. God the Father is an Honorable God and there would be no honor in it. That would make Him a liar, and He cannot lie.

An unsaved person is different. Yes, they are punished, even if we don't see it. They aren't covered under the Blood of Jesus.
 

eHuman

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You both hit on what I was getting at and my question was posed (rhetorically) after the comments about hell. There are some "God fearing" Christians who don't believe in Hell. So the Q, Can sin go unpunished and God still remain just? (much better than righteous)

And that just as food for thought to anyone who may not fully believe or understand Hell. God doesn't want any including Satan (I believe) to go to Hell, but in order to remain just...
 

eHuman

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When that moment of crystal clarity hit me that we will all live forever whether we belong to God or not it was sobering. Like all of creation we had a beginning but like God we will have no end. So it come down to, do a man spend it eternally in God's presence or eternally separated from Him? Really heavy on the heart, and does something to the way you view those around you.

Makes you want to reach out and share God with them. But how? I have been naturally shy my whole life.

I can remember at one point struggling. I could talk one on one to someone who believed or who would at least politely listen, and if I knew them but not a stranger. People who have known me at work for years saw an immediate and permanent change in me, I soon found out who were really friends and who weren't. I got laughed at by some and two tried actively to get me fired (true story they both lost their jobs within a month of me praying for God to save them or find them another position in the company), but in the end I soon learned that most people didn't want to talk or hear about God.

One of the times when God was dealing with me that He communicated clearly to me. Not audibly but more loud and sure than that. He said, "People are dying for lack of the knowledge that I have freely given you". I answered God from "where I was at" and said, "but most people won't even listen". What God answered me with was so simple but it yet He pierced my soul it, He said, "But some will".

That dying God mentioned is not a physical death obviously but a spiritual death destined to be spent in everlasting torment.

People are dying for lack of what God has freely given us. It has caused me to change in that I now fear their outcome more than I fear their rejecting the message.
 

LisaLisa

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Ok, here is where my "oddball" way comes in :). The Bible makes it very clear that hell is not forever, it will be destroyed when there is no more reason for it. When satan is finally destroyed for good, hell is too.

This will happen sometime after he is let loose for a short time after the 1000 year reign of christ, or at armageddon if you're not a believer of the millennium, which I'm not 100% sure about.

"DO NOT FEAR THOSE WHO CAN
ONLY KILL THE BODY BUT FEAR
GOD WHO CAN DESTROY YOUR
BODY AND SOUL IN HELL."
(Matt:10:28).

13 "And the sea gave up the dead
which were in them; and death and
Hell delivered up the dead which
were in them and they were judged
according to their works."

14 "And death and Hell were
Cast into the Lake of fire.
This is the Second Death.

15"And whosoever was not found
written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire."
(Rev:20:14-15).
 
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