The holy Grail: A temperature controlled Nitinol/Kanthal wire E-Cig

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1KAM

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Sep 11, 2014
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Cleveland
Hey guys, I linked to this thread from my previous controller idea.
In my research about Nitinol today, I discovered that it would be rather easy for me to implement a very interesting 510 mod device

Assuming one is using a Nitinol wire, one can precisely control the temperature of said coil of wire with a circuit i've crafted up and have tested before in a slightly different application. I'd love to give details, but it is my wish to make a bit of profit from this idea if it proves to be as revolutionary as I think it will...
and that means I want to take every precaution I can to avoid the "ATTACK OF THE CLONES"

I don't intend on this making me rich. I'd likely rather team up with someone eventually who is already making mods and have them machine out a thing to the requisite dimensioning required, then put it all together.

Now then, onto the juicy part. Nitinol wires have interesting properties. Assuming that Nitinol wire of a known (or close to known resistance) is used, a circuit can be built to interface with the nitinol and provide temperature control with no other inputs or outputs besides Voltage in, a setting on a small knob, and connections to the coil out.

What this means, is that I have a design of a circuit which can set and maintain the temperature of a nitinol/kanthal E cig coil IN ANY MOD PROVIDED (if resistance requirements are met) to any desirable temperature (with respect to the limitation presented by the resistance of the coil and the voltage provided by the battery which limits the current to a single known value ohms law yadda yadda P = I^2*R

I will need to do some experiments on this before I am comfortable releasing it, however the current design goals are as follows.

1. +/- 5*C accuracy temperature control on a single coil of roughly 0.5 ohms resistance.
(We are using a Sub Ohm Coil here for numerous reasons, One being that it makes it easy for the current controller to operate the load as desired. That is, you can get away with a thicker coil that allows more Wattage in your cottage, but because the circuit itself will be regulating current, the power draw from the battery itself will be limited to a known value and thus the battery will not be overdrawn.)

2. As stated above, maximum current draw of 10 amps or so, which will then be lowered and raised in order to maintain said constant temperature.

3- input supply range, 10 volts to 3 volts with no change to output behavior.

4- Total circuit size, 1.5 inches long, 3/4 inch diameter steel tube with 510 connectors in, out, compatable with all mechanical mods including 2 battery, 1 battery, box, etc. Heatsinking done to external shell.

WHAT I HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH WITH DOING THIS:

When a normal E-cig is operated, the coil glows bright red, and presently we are using voltage and resistance modifications to make our Kanthal/Nitinol behave at a good temperature... kind of.
However, I think that this would allow an E cigarette to sacrifice some "Traditional" Power efficiency, in the sense that the circuit involved to regulate current will effectively put out the exact right amount of power to keep coil temperature up. In this way, you should* still be saving energy because you are not overheating your wire.

Not only will this save coil lifetime, at least it should, but it also should save energy and battery life.

If you guys want me to try my hand at doing this, I will. I am interested in the project and willing. What I really need is some strong voices out there who might be willing to recieve and "Beta test" my idea for me once I get a crude ish version worked out. Likely what this will entail is a cheapy plastic box with an aluminum heatsink that screws onto a mod and does its thing, with a glitzy final production version coming later if it is liked.

No, I will not share my schematic.

-1KAM-

OLD THREAD HERE:::: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...kams-current-regulation-mod-any-interest.html
 
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1KAM

Full Member
Sep 11, 2014
33
24
Cleveland
Sounds like an Idea. I'll build the prototype and do some tests first of course.
I think I will also add a built in LED battery monitor to it eventually, for the convenience to the user, of knowing when they are actually charged.
For what its worth, a sub-ohm coil running on 3volts can draw a good 6 amps through it, which would me more than enough I think to maintain temperature, which would mean unlike a mech mod, you would see almost linear performance down to a point.
That is for the most part an advantage, I hate it when my vape gets weak as heck halfway through a long day.
 

1KAM

Full Member
Sep 11, 2014
33
24
Cleveland
Glad you asked.

The Evolv approach is using a Atmel Microcontroller approach to regulate the power going through the coil, and it appears to be using either a "temperature sensing" atomizer as described on the datasheet, or simply estimating the power flowing through the atomizer at any given time.
It looks like a fancy pcb with lots of parts and crazy inputs and outputs, and doesn't look nearly as "oomphy" for someone trying to go for a mech mod.

My design is for those that use Kanthal/nitinol wire in a mechanical esque mod. It is not a fancy circuit with an OLED display. It contains roughly SEVEN, yes you heard me, SEVEN components.

My design involves no external input besides an adjustment on a knob, and pushing the button on one's mechanical mod to turn power on.
My design of mine does not require or even recommend pure nickel wire.

The evolv runs between 3.1 and 4.3 volts, no more no less.
My design by current spec can run from 3 volts on up to 10volts for those that want a "stacked" battery and want to do so safely.


My intention is producing a ruggedized current limiting device that does the temperature control internally, can be tuned by a turn of a screwdriver until the desired vapor for one's mech mod is achieved, and requires no additional effort to vape on than pushing the button on the base of one's mod. It is for a 510 system, where one makes an atty with a kanthal wire of appropriate resistance, screws her in, pushes the button, and vapes.

Finally, it looks like just the evolv board costs $60 at a heavy discount. I bet I can do better.
 
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gray

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Well, simple and rugged is one of my favorite approaches. I've been a happy temp. protect user for months now and have room for more of anything that may be equal or better. Have you tried the dna40?. Impressive if configured well. Your ideas read of something like a "kick 3 T.P." layout. I can only say at this point that I'm curious what this may bring.
 

1KAM

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Sep 11, 2014
33
24
Cleveland
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Exactly whst are you measuring for temp control? Are you sure kanthal has the properties sufficient to measure temp?

Nickel Titanium, (Nitinol, Kanthal) wires have interesting thermomechanical properties.
If you are really interested, there is publicly available scientific information on the subject around the web,
http://www.ysxbcn.com/down/2013/08_en/19-p2329.pdf
This lab from India did a fairly good job of explaining some remarkable stuff about this wire we simply take for granted in our vapes.

The question you ask is a broad one, it really requires some delving into material science, some differential equations wonkyness, and a discussion of Nitinol's properties on a mollecular level.

But, long story short... Yes, you betcha I'm sure.
 

1KAM

Full Member
Sep 11, 2014
33
24
Cleveland
kick 3 T.P." layout does not have temperature control at all. It is only limiting the power dissipation of the coil itself.

Imagine for a moment, feeding a controlled voltage into a light bulb, say. "I will limit you to 12 watts current draw" Such does not regulate the temperature itself, it only kinda does.

Its a workable approach for sure, but is nothing like what I'm up to.


I do really like their design though. I might consider making it like that, though being forced down to an 18500 seems not as popular an Idea as it could be.
 
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1KAM

Full Member
Sep 11, 2014
33
24
Cleveland
Yes you are. From reading online today, I have determined that the best results will come with use of a different chemistry of heating wire / resistance wire. Fortunately this is about as affordable and of mostly similar properties to our Kanthal and other coil wires.

That said, the circuit will draw the amps it needs at startup to heat the coil up, then it will decrease its output until the desired temperature is maintained.

To that effect, this device will allow you to use any rebuildable wire coil-based atty you so choose to use, and without any modifications besides a coil replacement. Additionally, this design will allow for things such as "Stacked" batteries to be used, and is probably going to be designed as a simple screw in 510-in-510-out mod extension piece.

And face it, you replace your coil what, every two weeks right?

On that note: From my notes and calculations so far, so long as the batteries have enough voltage to run the circuitry, ~3 volts so far, coil heating will stay the same, though it might take longer to heat up if you are on the low side of voltage. Interestingly enough, when current is set and configured, changing input voltage won't change what temperature the coil will reach to... and the specs of my component choice most recently gave a max voltage of 16 volts.

Now, I'm not going to say stacking 3 batteries is smart, but it could be done.
 
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Flavored

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Glad you asked.

The Evolv approach is using a Atmel Microcontroller approach to regulate the power going through the coil, and it appears to be using either a "temperature sensing" atomizer as described on the datasheet, or simply estimating the power flowing through the atomizer at any given time.
It looks like a fancy pcb with lots of parts and crazy inputs and outputs, and doesn't look nearly as "oomphy" for someone trying to go for a mech mod.

My design is for those that use Kanthal/nitinol wire in a mechanical esque mod. It is not a fancy circuit with an OLED display. It contains roughly SEVEN, yes you heard me, SEVEN components.

My design involves no external input besides an adjustment on a knob, and pushing the button on one's mechanical mod to turn power on.
My design of mine does not require or even recommend pure nickel wire.

The evolv runs between 3.1 and 4.3 volts, no more no less.
My design by current spec can run from 3 volts on up to 10volts for those that want a "stacked" battery and want to do so safely.


My intention is producing a ruggedized current limiting device that does the temperature control internally, can be tuned by a turn of a screwdriver until the desired vapor for one's mech mod is achieved, and requires no additional effort to vape on than pushing the button on the base of one's mod. It is for a 510 system, where one makes an atty with a kanthal wire of appropriate resistance, screws her in, pushes the button, and vapes.

Finally, it looks like just the evolv board costs $60 at a heavy discount. I bet I can do better.

FYI – the Evolve chip measures the resistance of the coil to sense its temperature. Nickel was selected as the coil material since its temperature coefficient is sufficiently high to be used as a control parameter. There is no “temperature sensing atomizer” nor an estimate of the coil temperature, it is directly measured and fairly precise. It does require good connections all the way from the coil to the board in order to work.

What you’re describing, regulating on current or total circuit resistance, a reference point that is set with the dial, will work, of course, but a new coil would require some tweaking of the dial, and I’m not sure what advantages it offers over power regulation or Evolv’s approach (with the possible exception of price), especially when you have a readout to confirm settings. Is there an advantage I’m overlooking?
 

1KAM

Full Member
Sep 11, 2014
33
24
Cleveland
The datasheet of their Evolve "Chip" :: Which is an atmel microcontroller connected to a stepper motor driver, FYI :D, didn't allude to that very well, but If it does it, it does it.

I'll give you better price, and a different topology which can take some hard knocks. Also, wider input voltage range.

Readout to confirm settings? Meh, you mech modders like to twiddle around and find what you like anyway. Who needs an OLED display?
 

Kevin littell

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Sep 24, 2011
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My definition of the "holy grail " of vaping doesnt include 300 dollar mods, finicky builds or an electrical engineering degree.



I think your defining "Holy Grail " for tinkerer's.


Having said that the "holy Grail" in this vapers hand is a reliable mechanical, a Kayfun that takes 5 minutes of my time every OTHER week to rewick and a bottle of good juice.


Electronic controls on car engines did make them more efficient but when they quit most people just call a wrecker instead of lifting the hood and trying to fix it.


MY POINT IS: it needs to be simple and easy to use to be commercially viable.
 

BobC

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My definition of the "holy grail " of vaping doesnt include 300 dollar mods, finicky builds or an electrical engineering degree.



I think your defining "Holy Grail " for tinkerer's.


Having said that the "holy Grail" in this vapers hand is a reliable mechanical, a Kayfun that takes 5 minutes of my time every OTHER week to rewick and a bottle of good juice.


Electronic controls on car engines did make them more efficient but when they quit most people just call a wrecker instead of lifting the hood and trying to fix it.


MY POINT IS: it needs to be simple and easy to use to be commercially viable.

I think your point is a personal one, we all have one, for me, squonking on a BF mod is my Nirvana, I would never go back to a tank again
 
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