Possible idea for natural MAOi source.

[Kw0480]

The main difference of vaping vs. smoking in regards to how they affect the brain, in my opinion, would have to be the absence of "MAOIs" in vapor products. MAOIs are commonly used as antidepressants [*what I mean by "commonly used" is that depression is the most common use of MAOI's] because they inhibit a chemical known as "monoamine oxidase," this chemical breaks down neurotransmitters such as dopamine (known for its role in reward/addiction). Since nicotine indirectly increases the effect of dopamine in the brain, while MAOIs slow the breakdown of it, when both are ingested together (i.e. smoking tobacco), the end result is a highly addictive cocktail where the whole really is not the sum of its parts, but way more. This is the best answer to why even with a steady nicotine intake, many smokers are left craving more.

So could we find another source of this MAOi other than from tobacco? YES!
One of the MAOIs found in tobacco is called "Harmine." It can also be found in a variety of plants and animals:
"The harmine-containing plants listed include tobacco, Peganum Harmala, two species of passion flower/passion fruit, and numerous others. Lemon Balm(Melissa officinalis) contains Harmine."
I am now wondering if a substantial amount of harmine could be ingested as some variation of herbal tea in addition to vaping to get effects comparable to that of tobacco.
Thoughts, ideas, concerns?


Sources:
A chemically heterogeneous group of drugs that have in common the ability to block oxidative deamination of naturally occurring monoamines. (From Gilman, et al., Goodman and Gilman's The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics, 8th ed, p414)

Harmala Alkaloids as Bee Signaling Chemicals:
Harmala Alkaloids as Bee Signaling Chemicals | Harrington | Journal of Student Research

 

[Rickb119]

Or, you could try WTA. There are several threads that talk about it. You could do a search for wta.

Here's the latest. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...r-whole-tobacco-alkaloid-success-stories.html

 

[WattWick]

There's MAOIs in certain animals?

I picture a small herd of pandas going "better not be us having them MAOIs".

 

[Double Helix]

Personally I'd avoid playing around with MAOI's unless you have a very good understanding of them. MAOI's are NOT commonly used for depression. They're the first generation anti-depressants that were replaced with SSRI's due to a greater amount of side effects and negative (even life threatening) interactions with both food and drugs. Still used yes but not as a first attempt at treatment.

It's been awhile since I've done any reading, so I'm a bit rusty on there function. There are of course many factors and variables to consider. Dosage is one of those factors to consider. Don't just go pounding down harmine tea. Keep in mind that natural doesn't correlate with safe.

 

[samturdo]

thats playing with major addiction there, i would stay away from that

 

[Kw0480]

Rickb119, thank you for the link, I have noticed little discussion on the topic, and believe it to be a crucial aspect of tobacco addiction.

 

[Kw0480]

Personally I'd avoid playing around with MAOI's unless you have a very good understanding of them. MAOI's are NOT commonly used for depression. They're the first generation anti-depressants that were replaced with SSRI's due to a greater amount of side effects and negative (even life threatening) interactions with both food and drugs. Still used yes but not as a first attempt at treatment.

It's been awhile since I've done any reading, so I'm a bit rusty on there function. There are of course many factors and variables to consider. Dosage is one of those factors to consider. Don't just go pounding down harmine tea. Keep in mind that natural doesn't correlate with safe.

Very true, what I meant by "commonly used" is that depression is the most common use of MAOI's. As for the negative aspects attributed to MAOI's, harmine is not like its synthetic counterparts in that it does not have the almost countless side effects. This is due to it reversibly and selectively inhibiting MAO-A and not MAO-B; irreversible MAO-A inhibition and MAO-B inhibition is what normally opens the door for diet related interactions. That being said, drug interactions are still possible, especially with drugs acting on the central nervous system due to the possibility of excessive neurotransmitter build up, similar to what occurs with serotonin syndrome/poisoning.

I apologize for any misunderstanding, english is not my native language.

 

[Rickb119]

I have noticed little discussion on the topic, and believe it to be a crucial aspect of tobacco addiction.

Compared to "all" posts, you're right, there is very little discussion. There several threads though discussing WTA. In the upper right part of this page click on advanced search. Type WTA in the keyword(s) box and select search titles only. That will narrow it down somewhat.

As to it being a "crucial aspect of tobacco addiction", I believe that to be true for some of us. Maybe, (and I'm only speculating here) we are borderline bipolar (or some other such malady) and our brains NEED those minor alkaloids to function properly. I know mine does! However, the majority of people that have started vaping and quit smoking have done so without WTA. To those that have done so, I don't recommend WTA. To those who are greatly struggling and feel as though something is missing, or not quite right, I do.

 

[Bernard Marx]

I find this thread quite interesting. The major difficulty in experimenting in this way is that there is no solid basis to begin.

We can't make any assumptions about any psychiatric research because it is all so unscientific and so if we attempt to duplicate its specious tenets with further spurious subjective observation we really are in the domain of the superstitious.

I think it's the old St John's wort vs Prozac thing.

Either may be effective or maybe not. Who really knows.

 

[Israfil]

Hmm, its a possibility. Then again I was more angry when I was taking St John's wort than when not taking it. So YMMV

 

[Bernard Marx]

Maybe, or something else might have happened that you haven't considered. I bet there are people that took SJW and felt no difference. The fact that you qualify it really supports my premise.

 

[nasca]

harmala is quite psychoactive. I wouldnt casually ingest this. you're aware it's a key component in "pharmahuasca" correct? even consuming syrian rue by itself would not be a pleasant experience or, rather, a casual experience like you're seeking. I think you need to read up a little more before consuming this stuff.

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/harmala/harmala.shtml

https://www.erowid.org/plants/syrian_rue/syrian_rue.shtml

 

[GinnyTx]

Hmm wonder if you consumed these in sufficient quantities if it'd be like the dangers of the MOAI drugs.. foods tyramine (lots of the good stuff) that would create a dangerous elevation in blood pressure/hypertensive crisis and along with the effects of nicotine could ..hmm thinking.

couldn't you just find more natural ways to increase the dopamine dump to your brain? figure out what makes that happen. I've got coffee and music..Dopamine dump in progress!! (and other stuff too)


I'm assuming its to aid in depression? or just to get that feeling you did from ciggies?

 

[Kw0480]

As to it being a "crucial aspect of tobacco addiction", I believe that to be true for some of us. Maybe, (and I'm only speculating here) we are borderline bipolar (or some other such malady) and our brains NEED those minor alkaloids to function properly. I know mine does! However, the majority of people that have started vaping and quit smoking have done so without WTA. To those that have done so, I don't recommend WTA. To those who are greatly struggling and feel as though something is missing, or not quite right, I do.

I definitely agree and could not express my thoughts any better. The major difference I notice when vaping without any tobacco intake is definitely the lack of "mood-boosting/regulating." Which definitely points towards an existing brain imbalance and seems to shed some light on why only some people struggle with quitting tobacco regardless of nicotine intake.

 

[Kw0480]

I find this thread quite interesting. The major difficulty in experimenting in this way is that there is no solid basis to begin.

We can't make any assumptions about any psychiatric research because it is all so unscientific and so if we attempt to duplicate its specious tenets with further spurious subjective observation we really are in the domain of the superstitious.

I think it's the old St John's wort vs Prozac thing.

Either may be effective or maybe not. Who really knows.

I agree that we know very little, but neuroscience is progressing rapidly; giving us an advancing biological basis to stand on. Prozac and most if not all drugs are problematic in that they are systemic and therefore cannot really target very specific areas. One way to think about it: It is like trying to change your engine's oil by splashing oil all over the engine bay, some gets in where it should but most of it only interferes and maybe even cause damage.
I believe neuroscience and even psychology have progressed past "the domain of the superstitious," there are simply more unknowns when compared to other sciences. That said, I do think we must be extra careful when experimenting in these fields.

 

[Kw0480]

Hmm wonder if you consumed these in sufficient quantities if it'd be like the dangers of the MOAI drugs.. foods tyramine (lots of the good stuff) that would create a dangerous elevation in blood pressure/hypertensive crisis and along with the effects of nicotine could ..hmm thinking.

couldn't you just find more natural ways to increase the dopamine dump to your brain? figure out what makes that happen. I've got coffee and music..Dopamine dump in progress!! (and other stuff too)


I'm assuming its to aid in depression? or just to get that feeling you did from ciggies?

I brought up some information on the major difference I found between dietary interactions (tyramine containing foods) with harmine vs. popular pharmaceutical MAOI's in a previous post. Obviously there are always dangers when consuming any chemical, specially with larger/significant amounts.

This seems to be a likely source of some "self-medicating," being unable to get the same rewarding feelings from natural activities/pleasures; a state of slight yet constant anhedonia. Something that probably fueled my cigarette addiction from the start since it provides almost immediate "help," but at the same time was more detrimental in the long run.

 

[BigEgo]

I find this thread quite interesting. The major difficulty in experimenting in this way is that there is no solid basis to begin.

We can't make any assumptions about any psychiatric research because it is all so unscientific

Care to elaborate?

 

[Kw0480]

harmala is quite psychoactive. I wouldnt casually ingest this. you're aware it's a key component in "pharmahuasca" correct? even consuming syrian rue by itself would not be a pleasant experience or, rather, a casual experience like you're seeking. I think you need to read up a little more before consuming this stuff.

The fact that tobacco naturally contains harmine is relevant and this thread only exists because harmine is psychoactive; so is nicotine. I am aware of its use in Ayahuasca and "Pharmahuasca," and I believe the harmine allows the DMT to be active when ingested orally since it is rapidly broken down by monoamine oxidase.

 

[stevegmu]

Isn't that what drugs like Chantix and Wellbutrin do? Why create something else for someone to de addicted to or dependent on? Sometimes there is no pill or magic cure that can replace willpower...

 

[nasca]

The fact that tobacco naturally contains harmine is relevant and this thread only exists because harmine is psychoactive; so is nicotine. I am aware of its use in Ayahuasca and "Pharmahuasca," and I believe the harmine allows the DMT to be active when ingested orally since it is rapidly broken down by monoamine oxidase.

syrian rue is rough stuff, man. take caution.