Could someone help me understand caffeine?

[Chikazz]

Hello! I keep reading over and over that caffeine has too high of a boiling point for it to work in a vaporizer. I'm a little confused about that.

PG boils/evaporates at 188c. Glycerin boils/evaporates at 290c. Nicotine boils/evaporates at 247c.

Caffeine sublimates (Goes from a solid to a gas) at 178c. That's a lower temp than any listed above.

Also, I believe that mixing things can alter the boiling point of the whole, the way that adding salt to water makes it boil at a lower temp, or the way a 50/50 mixture of alcohol and water (Alcohol boiling at 78c and water boiling at 100c) will (at first) boil at a temp closer to that of ethanol.

By my logic, this means that a mixture of pg and caffeine should evaporate at the same or ~slightly~ LOWER temp than pure pg. Very, very slightly, unless you add a LOT of caffeine.

Am I missing something? Why do people keep saying you can't vape caffeine because it requires a higher temp than an atty can produce, if an atty can vaporize liquids with higher boiling points easily?

 

[WarHawk-AVG]

Why would you want to vape that...plus I don't know if it is safe to inhale

Pure Liquid Caffeine Concentrate - used in Energy Drinks, Soda, Energy Shots, Energy Products, Makeup, Cellulite Products, Sport Supplements, Skin Care, Medicine

 

[suspectK]

I don't know if it has too high of a boiling point, but the inconsistencies in dosing does it make it inpractical to vape. Which may be what the inconsistency is with vaping it, along side differing absorption rates through out the day.

 

[Chikazz]

I can understand that the dosing may be different, but I was asking why people say so often (I tried to scour the forums) that it simply isn't possible to vaporize it. As far as I can tell, dosing issues aside, it should be very simple to vaporize a pg/caffeine solution with an ecig atomizer. I was hoping someone who knows more could confirm or tell me if I'm missing something.

Thanks for the link to that solution, warhawk, but even if I do choose to try vaping caffeine, I'm not sure I'd want sodium benzoate in my lungs

 

[suspectK]

Caffeine citrate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look into that, but I haven't desire to try it. I drink NOS..I already get plenty.

 

[Chikazz]

Thanks, it might be helpful, if vaporized caffeine base does not absorb well... I imagine it would taste terrible, but it does sound more effective. I'll definitely look into it, I appreciate the suggestion

Still wondering if my hypothesis on whether or not it can be vaped in the first place holds any water.

 

[Ryedan]

I've just done a bit of Googling. Seems like it is possible to vaporize it, but it comes easily out of solution to form a pasty substance that needs to be handled. It also would take an awful lot of caffeine in the juice to matter to anyone. Unlikely to satisfy anyone looking to intake caffeine.

And this is just what I have read doing four minutes of research. If you really want to get to the bottom of it spend the time and figure it out. The information is out there and you can do this

 

[fabricator4]

Hello! I keep reading over and over that caffeine has too high of a boiling point for it to work in a vaporizer. I'm a little confused about that.

PG boils/evaporates at 188c. Glycerin boils/evaporates at 290c. Nicotine boils/evaporates at 247c.

Caffeine sublimates (Goes from a solid to a gas) at 178c. That's a lower temp than any listed above.

Also, I believe that mixing things can alter the boiling point of the whole, the way that adding salt to water makes it boil at a lower temp, or the way a 50/50 mixture of alcohol and water (Alcohol boiling at 78c and water boiling at 100c) will (at first) boil at a temp closer to that of ethanol.

By my logic, this means that a mixture of pg and caffeine should evaporate at the same or ~slightly~ LOWER temp than pure pg. Very, very slightly, unless you add a LOT of caffeine.

Am I missing something? Why do people keep saying you can't vape caffeine because it requires a higher temp than an atty can produce, if an atty can vaporize liquids with higher boiling points easily?

Or more to the point, understand "vaping".

First the dictionary definition: vapour: definition of vapour in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

Notice the distinction is made with GAS. We don't vape gas, which would be those substances you listed at above their critical (boiling) temperature and would cause some amount of harm.

You seem to think that vaping requires boiling the ingredients off the coil, which is not the case. I encourage you to do the following experiment (which i have done) and see the difference. Get a teaspoon and put about 10-20 drops of juice in it. Apply heat to the bottom of the teaspoon from your butane torch or from the stove and commence boiling the liquid.

Things you are likely to observe:

* There's no, or very little, actual "vapour" produced.
* If you blow on it, you may see a very little vapour, but considering the amount of juice being boiled, it's obviously not the same process as happens in an atomiser.
* It's bloody hot. If you were sucking on that you'd be in a world of hurt.

From this I *surmise* that the actual mechanism is that perhaps a small amount of the PG/VG is reaching critical temperature, and the energy of it turning into a gas causes liquid on the coil to become airborne at the micro droplet level. This seems to agree with the known fact that the nicotine cannot readily be absorbed in the lungs because the droplet size is too large.

So, the actual boiling point temperature of these substances is not that important to how vaping really works.

I had a look at an MSDS for caffeine: www.nsf-rs.org/media/downloadable/files/msds/caffeine_msds.pdf

And there's a couple of key points: It's a solid in it's pure form, and it's not listed as toxic by skin absorption, but instead is an Irritant and a mutagenic.

So I figure from this that yes it will get inhaled with the vape as it's in solution with (probably) PG. There seems to be some doubt however that you will get any of the normal caffeine benefits from inhaling it. It seems more likely that it will mainly be an irritant in your throat and lungs if it gets that far.

 

[JayTater]

GET FEIN Might work..

 

[fabricator4]

GET FEIN Might work..

2.75g of caffeine citrate = 65mg of caffeine. The problem would be getting that 2.75g of power into an atty, and it's probably an acid so you'd need to be very careful of that. MSDS -----> www.jmloveridge.com/cosh/Caffeine Citrate.pdf‎

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

Hello! I keep reading over and over that caffeine has too high of a boiling point for it to work in a vaporizer. I'm a little confused about that.

PG boils/evaporates at 188c. Glycerin boils/evaporates at 290c. Nicotine boils/evaporates at 247c.

Caffeine sublimates (Goes from a solid to a gas) at 178c. That's a lower temp than any listed above.

Also, I believe that mixing things can alter the boiling point of the whole, the way that adding salt to water makes it boil at a lower temp, or the way a 50/50 mixture of alcohol and water (Alcohol boiling at 78c and water boiling at 100c) will (at first) boil at a temp closer to that of ethanol.

By my logic, this means that a mixture of pg and caffeine should evaporate at the same or ~slightly~ LOWER temp than pure pg. Very, very slightly, unless you add a LOT of caffeine.

Am I missing something? Why do people keep saying you can't vape caffeine because it requires a higher temp than an atty can produce, if an atty can vaporize liquids with higher boiling points easily?

Actually, adding something to a liquid raises its boiling point instead of lowering it. That's why we add salt to water for cooking things that need to be boiled or steamed. Increasing the boiling point reduces the cooking time. It's also why PG is an effective, non-toxic additive to anti-freeze.

I don't see why you couldn't vaporize caffeine, but as others have pointed out, the results would be disappointing, and possibly even harmful.

 

[Chikazz]

As far as I can tell, and from my reading on the forum, the liquid does need to reach the boiling point. Because we draw air in so quickly around the heating element, only the fluid in contact with the coil becomes a gas, and the volume of air being pulled through cools the vapor as we draw it.

From what I can tell, a more appropriate comparison would be a fog machine that uses PG fog juice. How Fog Machines Work

It has to be heated to its boiling point, but the sheer amount of air mixing with the hot vapor as it's produced (thanks to the fan, or your inhalation) keeps it cool.

If we vaped on an atty the same way you inhale vapor wafting from a spoon, it would be akin to putting the juice in your ecig, powering the atty, and then waiting with an open mouth for the vapor to come to you instead. You're right, that would be very hot. O.O

 

[suspectK]

^Ionization is a little different than heating something up to its boiling point.

 

[Baditude]

This whole topic is moot. ECF does not support or allow discussion of adding any type of drug other than nicotine to our e-liquids.

As soon as a moderator sees this thread, it will be closed or deleted, I guarantee it.

 

[Chikazz]

I don't believe we're intentionally ionizing the liquid. How ionizers work-The Ionizer Site


Baditude: A few suppliers add caffeine to their juice (including the one I ordered from recently), and most of my research on the subject was done on these forums. I just want to understand if it will work.

Just looked up the forum rules:

"Members may not discuss non-legal non-consumer drugs or equipment and neither may registered vendors sell products for consumption of materials other than regular e-cigarette refills."

"a. These are not permitted - ... Discussion or mention of illegal/illicit drugs or sexual content."

Caffeine is one of the most legal and commonly used drugs in the world.

 

[Radar2013]

Hello! I keep reading over and over that caffeine has too high of a boiling point for it to work in a vaporizer. I'm a little confused about that.

PG boils/evaporates at 188c. Glycerin boils/evaporates at 290c. Nicotine boils/evaporates at 247c.

Caffeine sublimates (Goes from a solid to a gas) at 178c. That's a lower temp than any listed above.

Also, I believe that mixing things can alter the boiling point of the whole, the way that adding salt to water makes it boil at a lower temp, or the way a 50/50 mixture of alcohol and water (Alcohol boiling at 78c and water boiling at 100c) will (at first) boil at a temp closer to that of ethanol.

By my logic, this means that a mixture of pg and caffeine should evaporate at the same or ~slightly~ LOWER temp than pure pg. Very, very slightly, unless you add a LOT of caffeine.

Am I missing something? Why do people keep saying you can't vape caffeine because it requires a higher temp than an atty can produce, if an atty can vaporize liquids with higher boiling points easily?

Why would you want to Vape Caffeine? Why is it people are wanting to add more Chemicals to Vaping than what is already necessary? I get enough caffeine with my pot of coffee in the AM, my 1ltr Mnt Dew in the Afternoon and my 1 ltr Mnt Dew in the evening and on my birthday next month I am getting rid of that..

Why cant people leave Vaping alone. This is like the 4th thread I have seen about wanting to add this or why cant we add this. If we keep adding chemicals to E-liquids pretty soon its going to be like smoking analogs all over again.... With the exception of changing your PG/VG levels or adding a flavor shot LEAVE THE E-LIQUIDS ALONE!!!!!!!!!

 

[AgentAnia]

Why in heaven's name would anyone want to vape caffeine?!

 

[Chikazz]

Okay, I would ask why anyone in their right mind would want to vape nicotine (I certainly don't), or why someone would want to inhale the thousands of chemicals in an analog, but I don't, because what you choose to put in your body/inhale is your own business.

I am not asking anyone if they want to, or whether I should, I'm asking whether it can be done, and I would really appreciate a legitimate answer instead of "Why would you want to?"

I want to. Period. Moving forward. Can it be done?

 

[Radar2013]

Okay, I would ask why anyone in their right mind anyone would want to vape nicotine, or why someone would want to inhale the thousands of chemicals in an analog, but I don't, because what you choose to put in your body/inhale is your own business.

I am not asking anyone if they want to, or whether I should, I'm asking whether it can be done, and I would really appreciate a legitimate answer instead of "Why would you want to?"

I want to. Period. Moving forward. Can it be done?

And this ladies and gentleman is one of the reasons why the FDA feels that they need to step in and regulate this.....

 

[Chikazz]

No, they want to regulate them because they are primarily used as nicotine delivery devices. Caffeine is not only far less harmful, and can be used by anyone of any age, but it's mostly unregulated and consumed by 90% of the worlds adults.


I would like to take a moment to thank the people who are actually trying to help me instead of clogging my thread with pointless posts that aren't relevant to my question.

I came here for a legit answer to a legit question.