Can someone explain the correlation between temp control mode and wattage?

[Vape1048]

Greetings,

I have been reading around and there is something I cannot figure out in regards to temp control mode on my mod. I understand the general differences between using wattage (power) mode vs. using temp control mode (precision) and I prefer using the latter when possible because it seems to be more predictable and have the best mix between cloud and flavor.

However, I was under the assumption that temp control mode didn't have one messing with wattage settings- on my mod this is not the case. I found out earlier this week that I can set it at a constant temperature, but I can also adjust the wattage on the TC mode as well! This is somewhat confusing and I don't quite get why I would have this option. It seems like adjusting the wattage does make a difference though, on some coils more than others. Just wondering how I should go about determining how to set that.

By default, it normally sets it at 75W at 410-420* with all coils. I know different coils have different wattage settings, but all of my current ones are in that 70-80W rated range so a middle ground would make logical sense to me. What am I missing here?

Thanks

Edit: my mod is a Voopoo drag 2 mini using a Falcon King tank and M-dual coil currently.

 

[Izan]

Greetings,

I have been reading around and there is something I cannot figure out in regards to temp control mode on my mod. I understand the general differences between using wattage (power) mode vs. using temp control mode (precision) and I prefer using the latter when possible because it seems to be more predictable and have the best mix between cloud and flavor.

However, I was under the assumption that temp control mode didn't have one messing with wattage settings- on my mod this is not the case. I found out earlier this week that I can set it at a constant temperature, but I can also adjust the wattage on the TC mode as well! This is somewhat confusing and I don't quite get why I would have this option. It seems like adjusting the wattage does make a difference though, on some coils more than others. Just wondering how I should go about determining how to set that.

By default, it normally sets it at 75W at 410-420* with all coils. I know different coils have different wattage settings, but all of my current ones are in that 70-80W rated range so a middle ground would make logical sense to me. What am I missing here?

Thanks

Edit: my mod is a Voopoo drag 2 mini using a Falcon King tank and M-dual coil currently.

Hi and welcome,
I use SS wire for wattage and TC mode.
I find a suitable wattage to use and maintain that setting for use in TC mode.

The higher the wattage, the faster the coil can reach it's set temperature. This may or may not be the path to your best vape.

HTH
I

 

[ShamrockPat]

Rule number 1. You must use a Temp controllable type of wire(material) coil. What's that coil made out of?

 

[Mordacai]

Hello @Vape1048, I've been trying to find out what metal is being used for the Horizontech Falcon King m-dual coils. But cannot seem to find any information.

As TC or Temperature Control requires that you use specific metals. Such as Stainless Steel, Nickel or Titanium. As they have resistance changes under heating that can be measured, as this is how TC mode works.

Lots of coils use Kanthal though, and Kanthals resistance changes almost imperceptibly. And most mods cannot read the resistance changes of Kanthal, hohmwrecker were supposedly the only ones.

 

[Eskie]

I believe those coils are Kanthal so if you're in temp control mode you're just being kicked back to wattage mode without realizing it. Typically the metal is specified especially with SS drop in coils so there's no confusion on temp control use. If it turns out I'm wrong on those coils my apologies but the only "mesh" SS coil I know is a specifically marked single mesh on fhe Freemax and even that's not real mesh but more of a grid as the resistance would be too low if SS were used for the mesh itself on these drop in style coils.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

In power mode, your coils get stable wattage, and the temperature of the coils continue to rise as long as the fire button is pushed.

In TC modes (which only work with special wires... Ni200, Ti #1, and SS316L on most devices), the set wattage will be applied until the coil reaches a set temperature. Once that temperature is reached, the mod will throttle the wattage to maintain that temp. Setting the wattage in TC modes tells the mod how much wattage to apply to reach the desired temperature.

The mod knows the temp as it is constantly reading the resistance of the coil. With the wires listed above, as the temperature increases, the resistance increases. This change is called the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR). Some mods allow adjustment of the TCR values to use other wires. Some mods also allow for entering TFR (for the life of me, I cannot remember what that stands for) values. Those delineate the exact rise in resistance to temperature on a curve instead of a straight line ratio.

 

[bombastinator]

In power mode, your coils get stable wattage, and the temperature of the coils continue to rise as long as the fire button is pushed.

In TC modes (which only work with special wires... Ni200, Ti #1, and SS316L on most devices), the set wattage will be applied until the coil reaches a set temperature. Once that temperature is reached, the mod will throttle the wattage to maintain that temp. Setting the wattage in TC modes tells the mod how much wattage to apply to reach the desired temperature.

The mod knows the temp as it is constantly reading the resistance of the coil. With the wires listed above, as the temperature increases, the resistance increases. This change is called the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR). Some mods allow adjustment of the TCR values to use other wires. Some mods also allow for entering TFR (for the life of me, I cannot remember what that stands for) values. Those delineate the exact rise in resistance to temperature on a curve instead of a straight line ratio.
View attachment 813435

I always support drawing pictures

 

[Eskie]

In power mode, your coils get stable wattage, and the temperature of the coils continue to rise as long as the fire button is pushed.

In TC modes (which only work with special wires... Ni200, Ti #1, and SS316L on most devices), the set wattage will be applied until the coil reaches a set temperature. Once that temperature is reached, the mod will throttle the wattage to maintain that temp. Setting the wattage in TC modes tells the mod how much wattage to apply to reach the desired temperature.

The mod knows the temp as it is constantly reading the resistance of the coil. With the wires listed above, as the temperature increases, the resistance increases. This change is called the Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR). Some mods allow adjustment of the TCR values to use other wires. Some mods also allow for entering TFR (for the life of me, I cannot remember what that stands for) values. Those delineate the exact rise in resistance to temperature on a curve instead of a straight line ratio.
View attachment 813435

TFR is temperature factors of resistance. Mostly you'll see that as TFR curves as metals don't really have a linear change in resistance over temperature. However the difference is really small and I'm not sure how helpful it is in general use to enter a TFR over a TCR. The TFR curves themselves will slightly improve performance on stuff like DNA boards as you can load the entire curve, not just a single averaged value.

Edit: some boards may on fact use their own preprogrammed curves for different metals like when you select SS or Ni. But if you enter a custom TCR that may or may not be thrown out the window which is why you may end up fine tuning the TCR. That's one reason why tweaking temp control on a DNA mod through their eScribe software package allows for more accurate fine tuning.

To the OP none of that was relevant to your question, so feel free to ignore it to avoid even more confusion. Sometimes this stuff feels like quantum physics instead of plain old run electricity through the coil to make it hot and vaporize juice.

 

[stols001]

Some mods let you have a "starting wattage" yea. Some just don't anymore I think. I'm not entirely sure.

It is possible you are being kicked into wattage mode or it is possible you are using a "ramp up" and your TC is just not functioning.

The good news with Kanthal is you may "be" ineffectively in temp mode without it working, but nothing TERRRIBLE should happen.

If you use any of the TC wires EXCEPT stainless steel in wattage mode and they overheat, nastiness will be released into your vape. Like nickel and titanium HAVE to be vaped in TC mode.

So you are making the error in the right direction buy yeah you are going to need either temperature control drop in coils (and IDK if your tank makes them) or to buy and RTA and choose your own wire. Just kind of like a "Choose your own adventure" book. You can have endless fun with this, IF you are ready to take on the challenge.

If you are not (I stated before I was ready, although to be fair I think the results would have been the same regardless, I am a handicapped builder- I'm sorry I just can't call me handicapabable-- and it was pretty dire.)

The good news is most of the time unless you just have natural skill and talent you will only have to build your first RTA for the first time ONCE and it's all downhill from there. Usually.

Anna

 

[bubba106]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure those are kanthal coils, so you're not really vaping in tc mode anyway, it's kicking you back to wattage mode like someone else here said.

 

[Mordacai]

Thanks for reminding me folks, some mods use a wattage or joule value as a kind of preheat. This is the initial power passed through the coil until it reaches temperature.

Then as in 2 graphic that @Shawn Hoefer has kindly drawn, power levels are throttled to keep the coil within a range of the set temperature.

 

[Vape1048]

Hm, okay, so no TC with Kanthanl mesh. Weird, cause these seem to work better than my coils that are rated for TC. I don't like running coils in wattage cause I've had nothing but premature coil burn outs in a few days using wattage mode, and for sure I was priming them properly and allowing them to sit for 5 minutes-over an hour between drags. I feel like wattage/power mode is just overkill and heating the coil up way too much, even during shorter drags. But from what you are all saying, wattage is applied as a preheat... interesting.

Btw here are the coils I ordered as an exact replacement Horizon Falcon King Mesh Replacement Coils

So here's where it gets weird...

So you are making the error in the right direction buy yeah you are going to need either temperature control drop in coils (and IDK if your tank makes them) or to buy and RTA and choose your own wire. Just kind of like a "Choose your own adventure" book. You can have endless fun with this, IF you are ready to take on the challenge.

For sure Freemax makes coils that are rated for TC, I picked up a box of Firelukes that only have temperature ratings, nothing at all about wattage on the box. SS316L 0.12ohm (4008-500*). My mod still displays the wattage icon on TC mode for these as well though, and I can adjust it. It's just something it does for any coil no matter what it is. Thing is, I have not been impressed with these coils, they just do not produce the vapor nor the flavor that the falcons or the factory Uforce coils do. I've played with the settings a lot, and just cannot get them to be satisfactory. I have made sure the material setting is set to SS. So either I am missing something, or the coils just do not work well with the tank or mod for some reason. I normally keep temp on these between 400-430* and leave wattage at 70-75. Should I maybe raise/lower those settings? What is recommended?

As far as RTAs/RDAs... I haven't read much into them, but it looks like more than I'm willing to mess with right now.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

TFR is temperature factors of resistance.

Thank you! Racked my brain for hours and hours and could not recall that...

Some boards allow TFR settings on the fly without hooking up to a computer... Snowwolf spring to mind

 

[zoiDman]

Greetings,

I have been reading around and there is something I cannot figure out in regards to temp control mode on my mod. I understand the general differences between using wattage (power) mode vs. using temp control mode (precision) and I prefer using the latter when possible because it seems to be more predictable and have the best mix between cloud and flavor.

However, I was under the assumption that temp control mode didn't have one messing with wattage settings- on my mod this is not the case. I found out earlier this week that I can set it at a constant temperature, but I can also adjust the wattage on the TC mode as well! This is somewhat confusing and I don't quite get why I would have this option. It seems like adjusting the wattage does make a difference though, on some coils more than others. Just wondering how I should go about determining how to set that.

By default, it normally sets it at 75W at 410-420* with all coils. I know different coils have different wattage settings, but all of my current ones are in that 70-80W rated range so a middle ground would make logical sense to me. What am I missing here?

Thanks

Edit: my mod is a Voopoo drag 2 mini using a Falcon King tank and M-dual coil currently.

There is a Couple of ways that people use TC. And each achieves something a little Different.

One way is to set TC and to use a Very High Wattage. This would cause the Mod to kick into TC very Quickly. It would also reduce the Ramp-Up time of High Mass Coil(s)

Another way is to set TC as a Limit so they Shouldn't get a Dry Hit. Then they set the Wattage to whatever the like. And TC might Only come on when the Wick runs Dry.

Or maybe they use TC to Limit Temperature because they are thinking about what happens when VG, PG, VG/PG breaks down under thermal load. So they set a Temperature that they want and TC might only kick in at the End of a Long Hit. Or at the Beginning/Middle of a Back-2-Back Hit.

Or maybe some Combination of all Three?

Anyway you Slice it, the Wattage you set the Mod to is going to Effect the way the Hit Tastes before TC Kicks in. After that, not so much.

 

[Doffy]

some boards do TC better than others

a GOOD board, with wattage set to max, and TC on, will heat up quickly, then stabilise where you want it

a BAD board, with that setting, will kinda stutter and "rattle snake" (looking at you, yihi)
These boards are best set to a wattage that *almost* maintains desired temp anyway, and TC is then only subtle, or only kicks in in the case of potential dry hit/burnt wick

 

[zoiDman]

some boards do TC better than others

...

That is also a Very Good Point.

 

[Vape1048]

some boards do TC better than others

a GOOD board, with wattage set to max, and TC on, will heat up quickly, then stabilise where you want it

a BAD board, with that setting, will kinda stutter and "rattle snake" (looking at you, yihi)
These boards are best set to a wattage that *almost* maintains desired temp anyway, and TC is then only subtle, or only kicks in in the case of potential dry hit/burnt wick

There is a Couple of ways that people use TC. And each achieves something a little Different.

One way is to set TC and to use a Very High Wattage. This would cause the Mod to kick into TC very Quickly. It would also reduce the Ramp-Up time of High Mass Coil(s)

Another way is to set TC as a Limit so they Shouldn't get a Dry Hit. Then they set the Wattage to whatever the like. And TC might Only come on when the Wick runs Dry.

Or maybe they use TC to Limit Temperature because they are thinking about what happens when VG, PG, VG/PG breaks down under thermal load. So they set a Temperature that they want and TC might only kick in at the End of a Long Hit. Or at the Beginning/Middle of a Back-2-Back Hit.

Or maybe some Combination of all Three?

Anyway you Slice it, the Wattage you set the Mod to is going to Effect the way the Hit Tastes before TC Kicks in. After that, not so much.

Nice, think I get it now! That makes sense! Thanks for the input all!

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@Vape1048 - I cannot explain why you think TC works better for your Kanthal coils than wattage mode. Kanthal has a Coefficient Rating of 0.000002. In simple terms this means for every 1 °C increase in temperature, it’s resistance increases by 0.000002 ohms. So for a 0.5 ohm Kanthal coil to increase by 200°C, the device will need to read 0.5002 ohms in order for it to control it’s temperature. I do not know of a single device that has the resolution to be able to detect that minute of change in resistance.

By using a Kanthal coil in TC, your device is just applying power, and will continue to apply that same prescribed power for it does not have the accuracy to detect change in resistance. If there is any difference between this and wattage mode, it is because of deficiencies within the device and not because the device is controlling the temperature of a Kanthal coil

You see wattage within the TC settings because wattage is needed to bring your coil to your prescribed temperature. If you do not have the correct wattage, as in too low for example, your coil may never reach the temperature you set therefore, TC is not working as it should. This of course assumes you are using a TC qualified metal.

 

[englishmick]

Greetings,

I have been reading around and there is something I cannot figure out in regards to temp control mode on my mod. I understand the general differences between using wattage (power) mode vs. using temp control mode (precision) and I prefer using the latter when possible because it seems to be more predictable and have the best mix between cloud and flavor.

However, I was under the assumption that temp control mode didn't have one messing with wattage settings- on my mod this is not the case. I found out earlier this week that I can set it at a constant temperature, but I can also adjust the wattage on the TC mode as well! This is somewhat confusing and I don't quite get why I would have this option. It seems like adjusting the wattage does make a difference though, on some coils more than others. Just wondering how I should go about determining how to set that.

By default, it normally sets it at 75W at 410-420* with all coils. I know different coils have different wattage settings, but all of my current ones are in that 70-80W rated range so a middle ground would make logical sense to me. What am I missing here?


Thanks

Edit: my mod is a Voopoo drag 2 mini using a Falcon King tank and M-dual coil currently.

As others have said the wattage setting in TC only has an effect at the start of a drag. In theory you could set the wattage to 300. The board would start out 300 W, then reduce it to an appropriate level as soon as the coil heated up to whatever temp level you set. If you set the wattage very high the only effect would be that the coil would reach its operating temp very quickly.

In practice that isn't necessarily the case. When I started out using TC I had a coil and temp setting that required around 12 Watts. Unbeknown to me the wattage was defaulted to 68 W. In theory after a microsecond it should have been reduced to 12 W. In practice it blew my coil before the board could react.

After blowing several coils I figured out what was happening. I set the wattage to 14 and it was fine. After a brief interval it reduced to 12 W. My takeaway is that if you set the wattage significantly higher than the level required to reach the temp you have set you could have problems. So the wattage setting really can have an effect on the experience you have vaping. The coil could get severely overheated before the board can reduce the wattage. Even if the board could drop the wattage instantaneously the coil would take some period of time to cool back down.

You said your coils had a suggested range of 70 to 80 W. Sometimes those suggested ranges are overstated, and maybe are based on running at a higher temperature than you are setting in TC. For example if your coil is only needing 50W to reach the temp you chose then having a wattage setting of 75 might be too much for the system.

To figure out what is happening you need to download the software for whatever board you have in the mod, then you can see a real time graph showing temp and wattage against time.

 

[Letitia]

When using mesh coils I've found keeping the mod in normal ramp much better. Hard ramp simply isn't needed.