Alcohol Content.

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MBblue

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Dec 12, 2009
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Los Angeles
I'm a recovering alcoholic. I have been made aware that many, if not all, eliquids contain ethyl alcohol. I know that there are a few that don't, but as a rule most eliquids don't have an ingrediants list. All the ones with a good throat hit seem to have alcohol in them and I really need the best throat hit possible to keep me off of analogs. I guess my question is, in general how much ethyl alcohol is used in e-liquid? Is it enough that I should be concerned about it? And what are the effects if any of vaporizing alcohol vs. drinking it? I know it's such a small amount that I am vaporizing at a time and it seems trivial but alcoholism is a life and death deal for me. Can anybody help put this drunks mind at ease? I love my ecig but this issue is always on my mind. Help please!:confused:
 

soylent

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Sep 5, 2009
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cincy, oh
I can speak from DIY juicing. If you use alcohol to dilute a thick juice, at the most extreme you may get to 20% with a VG based juice.

At 20% in a cart that holds 15 drops, that's 3 drops of alcohol per refill. Another way to look at it is if you vape 30ml a week at 20% ratio of alcohol it would take 5 weeks to vape a 1 ounce shot.

Unless your mind is just looking for a reason to relapse, I don't think you have a problem.
 

Raenon

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Remie

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Dec 16, 2009
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I'm a recovering alcoholic. I have been made aware that many, if not all, eliquids contain ethyl alcohol. I know that there are a few that don't, but as a rule most eliquids don't have an ingrediants list. All the ones with a good throat hit seem to have alcohol in them and I really need the best throat hit possible to keep me off of analogs. I guess my question is, in general how much ethyl alcohol is used in e-liquid? Is it enough that I should be concerned about it? And what are the effects if any of vaporizing alcohol vs. drinking it? I know it's such a small amount that I am vaporizing at a time and it seems trivial but alcoholism is a life and death deal for me. Can anybody help put this drunks mind at ease? I love my ecig but this issue is always on my mind. Help please!:confused:

Hi!

I totally understand your conerns, and congrats on your continued sobriety!

Kudos to you for asking questions and being aware!!

There are only a few points that I'd consider.

The e-liquid is highly toxic to ingest. Poisonous, period.

Since alcohol evaporates at 172°F (78°C), I believe it's safe to assume that when the e-liquid is "cooked" by the atomizer any alcohol is evaporated. Given that, it makes sense to assume the resulting vapor that we inhale is devoid of any meaningful alcohol.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong here, but logic and common sense tells me that vaping does not and will not compromise your sobriety.

I'm also sending you a PM with a few suggestions :)

Good Luck!

Remie
 

mpetva

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Apr 16, 2009
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Hi!

I totally understand your conerns, and congrats on your continued sobriety!

Kudos to you for asking questions and being aware!!

There are only a few points that I'd consider.

The e-liquid is highly toxic to ingest. Poisonous, period.

Since alcohol evaporates at 172°F (78°C), I believe it's safe to assume that when the e-liquid is "cooked" by the atomizer any alcohol is evaporated. Given that, it makes sense to assume the resulting vapor that we inhale is devoid of any meaningful alcohol.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong here, but logic and common sense tells me that vaping does not and will not compromise your sobriety.

I'm also sending you a PM with a few suggestions :)

Good Luck!

Remie

The e-liquid is highly toxic to ingest. Poisonous, period.
WTH?????? Where did that come from? This statement is based on what facts????
 

5cardstud

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The e-liquid is highly toxic to ingest. Poisonous, period.
WTH?????? Where did that come from? This statement is based on what facts????

Well for one thing nicotine itself is used as an insectocide. Two I read somewhere the % of nicotine lethal to adults and children. But I believe you would have to ingest quite a bit to be lethal. Also he didn't say it was lethal just toxic and many of the products we use daily have a certain toxicity but aren't lethal.
 

soylent

Senior Member
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Sep 5, 2009
198
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cincy, oh
The e-liquid would be considered toxic/poisonous if you were to drink it, but that's not what anyone is saying... no reason to bring it up. Water becomes poisonous if you drink enough too.

And even though alcohol evaporates at XXX degrees... you are sucking this into your mouth/lungs, so you will ingest/absorb it as it turns into a gas. What we're saying is that the amount is going to be minimal.
 

Kurt

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Sep 16, 2009
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I am very glad someone brought this issue up. Some juices premade do have ethanol in them. Some do not. The vendors will tell you.

I do not drink. I am not a recovering alcoholic, rather alcohol effects me very strongly. My juices are all DIY VG juices, and I would add 10% vodka to thin the thick juices. VG juices need to be thinned generally for atty health and good wicking. Vodka works great. Except, I was noticing a distinct lack of mental and physical energy, like I was a bit drugged, and given that I do chemical physics and martial arts, this was a problem. I only just realized that this period of lethargy began when I started thinning juices with vodka.

Fact: YOU ARE INHALING EVERYTHING IN JUICES, INCLUDING ETHANOL. Nothing is "burned off" or "cooked", it is just vaporized, not decomposed.

Fact: inhaled ethanol requires very little to have an effect. Ever use a brandy pipe? Its a glass pipe that you put brandy or liquor in the bowl and inhale the vapors. 0.5 mL of brandy will strongly effect you...in fact you might not even finish it before you go into a stupor. If you use PGA to thin at 10% juice, this would correspond to maybe 2.5 mL of juice...the normal daily amount.

Fact: now that I eliminated vodka, and now use 20% distilled water to thin juices, those symptoms of physical and mental lethargy are gone, as in immediately and completely. I feel normal again.

MBblue, I think your concern is valid and wise. I would avoid juices with ethanol in them. Admittedly this is a new concept here, and true some may not notice an effect, but for a non-drinker used to being in top shape physically and mentally, I can say it definitely affected me. You would absolutely be ingesting ethanol, and in a way that bypasses the normal initial metabolism pathways, and goes right into the blood and brain.

Some may argue that it is ok, no problem. I would argue that some may drink enough that the difference comparatively may not be obvious. As a chemist who has experience with vaporized alcohol, and a knowledge of the physical states of e-juice components, and who is sober and very used to mentally and physically pushing myself to the limit, yes, it is a definite point of concern.

Also, speaking as someone who has had several family members almost die from alcoholism, but who are recovered now and thriving, I would be profoundly sad if some good person here unknowingly fell off the wagon and started to relive those dark days and not even know why. Be on the safe side, and make your own juices without ethanol. If you want to vape VG juices, distilled water works fine.

Thanks so much for bringing this very important issue up.
 

Remie

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Dec 16, 2009
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The e-liquid is highly toxic to ingest. Poisonous, period.
WTH?????? Where did that come from? This statement is based on what facts????

I said it was toxic - not instant death. Being a smoker builds up a tolerance to nicotine, the same way that using any addictive substance does. So, your tolerance to nicotine would determine the amount you'd have to ingest to experience symptoms of an overdose.

That said - I was only trying to make the point to someone who's rightfully aware and questioning the potential compromise of their sobriety, that having e-juice around and vaping in every likelihood would not compromise their sobriety.
 

Raenon

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ECF Veteran
Sorry Kurt, but I'm going to have to disagree with your post entirely.

Half a ml of brandy putting you into a stupor is ridiculous. Plus, that's be 20% of 2.5ml in a day.

But lets do some math here.
The average human body has 10 units of blood. That's 160 ounces, with 29.573 ml to an ounce, that's an average 255,570 ml of blood in a human being.

0.5ml /255,570 = 0.0000195% if you INJECTED pure alcohol directly into your bloodstream.
I was corrected about the math later in the thread- it's actually 0.01% I blame the calculator I was using, but I probably just wasn't paying close enough attention to what keys I'd punched.
Please remember, that 0.08% blood alcohol content is considered to be intoxicated for purposes of driving.

Do you see the difference? It's 1/4000th 1/8th as much alcohol as it would take to make you legally intoxicated, which is generally 1-2 drinks in an hour for an adult. Please also remember that's not based on being in a "stupor", that's a level that many people will still be able to drive at (though irresponsible, and I'm not advocating it, just saying that people don't generally fall asleep in the bar after 1 beer)

To further put it into perspective- nyquil is 25% alcohol by volume. This means that a 2 tablespoon dose (1oz) has over 7ml of alcohol in it.

To the OP MBblue, please don't think that I am trying to put down the importance of what you're doing, or your caution to stay on the wagon, but you'll get about as much alcohol in the vanilla extract in a couple of sugar cookies as you will from vaping.
I hate fearmongers -_-
 
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I said it was toxic - not instant death. Being a smoker builds up a tolerance to nicotine, the same way that using any addictive substance does. So, your tolerance to nicotine would determine the amount you'd have to ingest to experience symptoms of an overdose.

That said - I was only trying to make the point to someone who's rightfully aware and questioning the potential compromise of their sobriety, that having e-juice around and vaping in every likelihood would not compromise their sobriety.

Nicotine is a poison. It doesn't need to be ingested to harm someone. It is absorbed through the skin and cause as much harm. 60 mg of nicotine is enough to kill an adult. Nicotine content of one cigarette can make a child seriously ill. There's a reason the nicotine patch and other delivery systems say not to be used with other delivery systems, you have no control of how much nicotine your body is getting. There's a reason 54mg juice comes with the warning saying it's not for vaping without cutting.

As far as alcohol content and recovering alcoholics, I'm recovering also, and the only thing that has ever made me want to drink again was my ex-wife. The amount of alcohol in food, medicines, and flavorings is so miniscule, it has no effect on the body.
 

Kurt

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Sep 16, 2009
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Well, I knew what I posted was going to have mixed responses, and I knew someone was going to accuse me of fearmongering. I most certainly do feel the effect of 10% alcohol. I have done the experiment now a few times and there is, at least with me, a strong enough effect to want to avoid it.

I have also worked with ethanol as a solvent in reactions, where the air is filled with ethanol vapor, and every chemist knows how that affects you, just like any volatile solvent vapor.

I have also owned and used a brandy pipe, mostly with Gran Marnier and stronger flavored liquors, and the effect is very strong for very little liquid. And this is exactly the purpose of a brandy snifter. You do not even need to drink it.

Inhaled alcohol is not the same as alcohol that is ingested as a drink. It goes right to the brain, and it takes very little to affect you. Perhaps stupor is too strong a word, but buzzed? Yes, definitely.

Everyone is different. I know people that can throw back enough ethanol to put me in a coma. This is a function of differences in liver alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes. Mine are somewhat sluggish, it seems. I feel the effects of one beer. Many alcoholics have overactive liver enzymes, which is why many dont feel or act drunk after having consumed a lot. And some have zero tolerance from damaged livers.

The effect was not enough to noticeably affect my driving, that I could tell, but it was enough that normal tasks I need to do, like high-level math, programming, and martial arts, were strongly affected. Spread out over a day, before I realized what was happening, had me thinking something is terribly wrong. And now that I am paying attention, I can certainly taste alcohol in the vapor.

Try this: put a couple mL of PGA into a vessel that allows you to only breath the vapor evaporating off of it, such as a snifter. Warm it a little to help. Sit there and inhale and see what happens while you attempt to inhale it all. If nothing happens at all, then I would say using alcohol to thin your juices should have no effect. I personally would be pretty strongly buzzed, and not a fun buzz, more like a general anesthetic, and I would not want to finish it. You are correct, my blood alcohol level would be WAY under illegal. And I would be strongly buzzed...my guess is anyone would be.

And for a recovering alcoholic, I would say even a hint of that buzz would be something you would want to avoid. Mind you, my juice was 10%. Most commercial juices with alcohol have maybe 2% since they use PG and are thin enough as it is. It certainly does make for a better quality vape, especially in terms of flavor, but water works almost equally well.

But showing a recovering alcoholic the numbers of how they should be able to vape alcohol, when distilled water, which many vendors use instead of alcohol, works about as well, is to me rather misguided. People can do what they want. I am just saying that, yes, the alcohol has the potential to affect you, and there is an alternative, so whats the big deal?
 

mpetva

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Apr 16, 2009
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Virginia
I said it was toxic - not instant death. Being a smoker builds up a tolerance to nicotine, the same way that using any addictive substance does. So, your tolerance to nicotine would determine the amount you'd have to ingest to experience symptoms of an overdose.

That said - I was only trying to make the point to someone who's rightfully aware and questioning the potential compromise of their sobriety, that having e-juice around and vaping in every likelihood would not compromise their sobriety.

Ok:), it is just the way you worded it earlier, it sounded like DO NOT VAPE since Nic Juice is toxic....at least thats how it came across to me.
 
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